I can’t see anything anti-Semitic or even anti-Israel in the post, elucidator and I do think Mr. Moto stepped over the line.
Mr. Moto: The right thing to do here is to offer a simple apology. Don’t justify what you said, because it really can’t be justified. We all make mistakes, and I know that elucidator has a history of graciously accepting sincere apologies. How about it?
I have to admit that when I first read what 'luci said in the other thread I thought it was a bit…odd. And lord knows I don’t usually agree with him on anything, though I do enjoy his over the top and flowery speeches…he can be quite droll at times. But I’m just not seeing 'luci as an anti-Semitic or even anti-Israel type…just a guy who likes to make flowery speeches from his virtual soapbox. And he DID ask for anyone to come along and tell him his musings were wrong. I think a better tact for Mr. Moto would have been to do just that with some cites or with an equally flowery speech back at him.
On the other hand, I’m not sure that what Mr. Moto said was particularly pit worthy, but then I’m not one to resort to the pit usually in any case. I usually only venture in here when someone in GD links a pit thread.
-XT
Wow, I really thought that sort of crap was beneath you, Mr. Moto. Very disappointing.
A worthy effort, John, “blessed are the peacemakers”, and all that.
Let me lend perspective. Scylla used to irk me. Brutus annoyed me.
This time I am really pissed off! I am sitting here munching a bag of tenpenny nails like they were Cheetos. A simple “oopsy!” ain’t gonna get it.
Let him to the river go, to perform that Ancient Tasmanian Ritual of Self-Abasement, accompanied by a Chorus of Bitter Virgins, intoning dirges of Woe and Humiliation.
For starters. 'Cause I am really pissed off!
It’s the blatant imputation of Jew-bashing, of alliance with rabid anti-Semitism, that’s Pit-worthy. If Mr. Moto had simply said, “That’s a loony conspiracy theory you’re tossing out,” I don’t believe elucidator would have taken him to the Pit.
Are you unfamiliar with what the Protocols of Zion are?
I think that, unless you correct me, I’ll take that as more of a no than a yes. Indirect, around the bend, over the stage, and innocent — I’d say you haven’t really called them anti-Semetic, and I’m glad of that. My sister is a fundamentalist Christian who believes that Israel plays a central role (not a bit part) in what she believes is the Last Days. I think that where she might differ with the Falwells, et al, is that she believes that Israel is fulfilling God’s plan, and not hers. She does not believe that Israel benefits her in any way. She believes that her salvation is a personal matter between her and God. Anyway, I’ll let this go now and return you to your pitting.
But there still is the matter of your Volvo fallacy. Selecting certain events, attributes, particulars, or what-have-you, that stand out to you as important, vital, or memorable, and then positing those things as support for some conclusion is a mistake.
Exactly what are you saying here? Are you setting up an equivelance between elucidator and “rabid Jew haters” or “low disgusting creatures”? As long as an opinion is honesty held then I don’t see why the character or motivations of other people who hold similar opinions should reflect poorly upon the honest man. This is nothing more than guilt by association. If you wanted to call the idea a nutbar conspiracy theory, then feel free to do so. elucidator can then choose to explain his reasoning or not as he sees fit. Unless you are contending that one of those Jew haters or “low disgusting creatures” are the topic of conversation, or claiming elucidator is one of them, then there is no reason to mention them at all.
Guilt by association is a logically bankrupt rhetorical technique. It holds no water and should be given no quarter in honest dialogue.
Enjoy,
Steven
I’m familiar with them, yes. I don’t recall Mr. Moto bringing them up…did I miss it? If so, link to it and I’ll re-evaluate my position on this.
Perhaps you are right. I actually read what Mr. Moto said as essentially “That’s a loony conspiracy theory you’re tossing out”, and just making digs at 'luci that he was running parallel to some other nutballs (i.e. the Jew-bashing anti-semitic, or Jew world order folks)…not that he actually WAS one. But I may have misread what was being said.
-XT
elucidator, for the record, this Israeli does not consider you an anti-semite. While there are some Israelis who consider any criticism of their country to originate in anti-Jewish bigotry, I am not one of them. And while there are many people around the world who indeed use anti-Israeli positions as a way to express their own racism, I do not believe that you are one of them.
And yes, the Christian fundie supporters worry me, too. While we’re not a nation that looks a gift horse in the mouth - after all, we’re hardly beating off supporters with a stick - the religiously motivated give me pause, especially this specific group. Who knows when they’ll decide that they were wrong all along, and go back to their old Jew-hating was? Christians supporting Jews is hardly normal, historically speaking.
Mr. Moto’s comments are the first real evidence I have seen on this board of someone invoking anti-Semitism as a direct counter to a critique of Israel.* As such, it will probably be referred to repeatedly by those who like to wail about how they can’t say a negative thing about Israel without being labeled bigots. Bullshit, yes, but now they have a shred of justification.
It is wrong and self-defeating to infer bigotry in such a context, Mr. Moto, unless you have sufficient evidence to do so. Here you do not.
There have been numerous other cases where virulently anti-Israel posters have betrayed their anti-Semitic feelings, so there’s been ample opportunity to demonstrate this linkage in the more extreme cases.
*I use the word “critique” loosely, as it reeks of conspiracy theorist blather.
I would be pleased to hear an authoritative argument in the first place.
Here you go – a response to my post directly above challenging him to support what he’d said.
sigh
Always a bridesmaid, never a bride.
I’d say that may be because your particular annoyingness is of a more recent vintage. I can’t really remember thinking that you’d been drinking Kool-Aid prior to November of last year…
This really irritates me. It was never my beloved Kool-aid (Thought the packets had better art work back then.) It was Flavor-Aid
Sounds like Mr Moto is channeling december.
'ere, you had Flavor-Aid? All we ever got was the shavings from colored pencils and melted crayons stirred in tepid water, and damn happy to have it, we were!
::Shakes head rapidly:: No, no, no, no I am, and I believe jayjay, is saying we believe Bricker is of the mindset to drink Flavor-Aid. I am Kool-Aid drinker all the way. I never really liked it, untill I went to a Science Center daycamp one summer, when I was a kid, but it turned out all my prior experiences with it was due to a neighbor tainting it by pouring in gelatin mix.
Q: Why do Aggies hate to play Texas Tech?
A: Because they have tee tee on their jerseys.
Indeed, One should really be worried of friends that have a picture of the end of times where your people will be either converted or dead! The recently released recorded conversation of Nixon with Billy Graham shows IMO the mentality of the extreme religious right in America:
From a 1972 conversation with President Richard Nixon and Billy Graham. Tape of the Oval Office meeting from the National Archives.
So, it is their location and the Christian prophecies that are a factor that -for the moment- helps the Jews in Israel, if ever the religious right stops believing the concept of “Jews controlling Israel is needed for the end of times”, then I do think Israel will have a good chunk of that help gone.
Funny; I was just saying the same thing about the people who continue to lob shitballs at Bill Clinton and the Kennedy family.