Mozart Opera in Berlin Cancelled for Fear of Muslims: Complex Story!

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Who is “we”? I would support a house choosing to show the new work, and I would support a house not choosing to show it. But with a new work, I’d say that things are much more honest, not this lame hiding behind Mozart.

Choosing not to tweak a psycho’s nose if you think they might beat you to death isn’t cowardice (which has come up before, not in this thread) and isn’t censorship.
[/QUOTE]

“We” is society. It appears “We” are giving the psycho nose-tweaker an inch so he can take a mile. I wouldn’t categorize it as hiding. Many artists throughout history have taken existing works and added their own spin to it. It’s his statement nonetheless. I think the dishonesty lies in an art house wimping out to the rantings of religious goofballs.

22

[QUOTE=dropzone]
On the one hand we have an artiste making a stupid statement unconnected with the artwork. On the other hand, we have the people who own his venue asking him to drop the stupid statement because it might lead to trouble for them, their customers, and their property. He gets petulant about artistic integrity. I assume this was followed by repeated conversations that consisted of “Pretty please?” and “NO!” Finally they tell him to piss off and find someplace else to get political.

Sounds like the Free Enterprise System in action.
[/QUOTE]

I would like to hire you to read threads and make points better than I can make them. I’ll give you a nickel!

23

[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
I agree that adding to Mozart’s work (apparently just to stir the shit) is probably not such a hot idea. But what if a new artist created a piece that included all the things the muslim community is getting all lathered up over? Do we censor anything that annoys them? Do we send an envoy to the middle east to teach them how resist buying tickets to the performance? What’s the answer?
[/QUOTE]

I won’t pretend to know opera, although I know it’s considered okay (if sometimes tacky) to do politicized interpretations of other stage works. Which gets us to the main point, a thing we keep hearing over and over again: it’s okay to criticize religions and political movements, but don’t make any critiques of Islam and especially don’t call them violent, 'cuz they might just threaten to kill you! :stuck_out_tongue:

In turn, this can and should only inspire more critiques of Islam. This situation is insane, and Islam isn’t special - it doesn’t have or deserve any kind of immunity from examination or criticism. The problem as I see it (and **Kalhoun and probably at least a few other people here) is not limited to the Berlin Opera. They’re justified in covering their own asses. We’ve seen in recent months is that nobody with any kind of a public platform is allowed to do anything that could be interpreted as criticizing Islam. Danish newspapers can’t run cartoons dealing with Islamic terrorism, the Pope can’t quote somebody who died centuries ago criticizing Muhammad (even though he didn’t endorse the position itself, called the language “startling” and was discussing the issue in a context of faith and reason), and now this. The message is that Islamic nutjobs are watching you, so you’d better keep quiet. It has a chilling effect, and I don’t think it’s part of the marketplace of ideas or whathaveyou.

24

Okay, let’s try this analogy. The movie “V for Vendetta” definitely had several elements “tacked on” for political effect. (For example, the protagonist V is made out to be clearly the good guy, the far-right chancellor was made out to be clearly the bad guy, whereas in the comic book there was some ambiguity. Also, the sympathetic portrayal of the lesbian couple was pretty much an invention.)

Now, were Christian activists threatening violence because of the virulent hatred of Christianity in the added parts of the film, how many of you would say, “well, on one hand, they shouldn’t be riled up; on the other hand, it was really stupid of [whoever the director is] to shoehorn in those inflammatory elements.”

Didn’t think so.

25

[QUOTE=athelas]
Now, were Christian activists threatening violence because of the virulent hatred of Christianity in the added parts of the film, how many of you would say, “well, on one hand, they shouldn’t be riled up; on the other hand, it was really stupid of [whoever the director is] to shoehorn in those inflammatory elements.”
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Mmmmm–weren’t there some bomb threats against movie theaters when The Last Temptation of Christ was released?

26

[QUOTE=athelas]
Didn’t think so.
[/QUOTE]

Don’t ask me a goddamn question and then presume to answer for me.

27

You didn’t think what? That somebody would find your analogy less than compelling? Could you have come up with something a wee bit more comparable than a crappy movie made form a comic book nobody’s read? How about this: The “Mona Lisa” is going on tour but I, the tour organizer, am going to tape one of the offensive Danish comics across her face it to make my own political point.

Back to what I suspect was your question, if I, as a movie mogul, saw the potential loss of patronage (and even patrons) because a director in my pay was politicizing a film based on an apolitical, or ambiguously political, illustrated novel you can be sure I would call him on the carpet.

28

[QUOTE=Larry Borgia]
The next art work to be cancelled because it pisses off some violent fanatic may not be stupid at all. It may be a work you would have loved.
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Of course, after awhile potentially challenging art will just cease to be made at all.

Which is pretty much the goal.

29

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Don’t ask me a goddamn question and then presume to answer for me.
[/QUOTE]

Quiet! He’s having a rhetorical conversation.

30

It is very simple: The director of the opera is being a troll. And he’s being a very successful one.

Think of this as an SDMB thread. The OP takes a recognized work and adds a little bit onto it to make it deliberately provacative. When the predictable shitstorm happens, he won’t remove it, claiming artistic freedom. It turns into a round-robin debate over artistic freedom aganst the terrorists against those would give in to terrorist threats. What is forgotten is that the instigator deliberately stirred this up and unreasonably refused to remove the unnecessary distraction.

This guy is the type of subtle troll that would last several months here, get pitted half a dozen times times, survive by being just provactave enough for quite a few rounds, and eventually overplay his hand and get banned.

31

Excellent comparison, Billdo.

32

I disagree with the decision to censor, and find the censorship imposed by the threat of violence dreadful.

With a cynical publicist’s eye, though, and in the light of the Mohammed cartoon nightmare, might one speculate that this is the best publicity the production could hope for?

It’s not the first time it’s happened. Bunch of outraged religious people get play stopped in western country due to violence. The play was stopped on health and safety grounds. But…

33

[QUOTE=Marley23]
In turn, this can and should only inspire more critiques of Islam.
[/QUOTE]

Which it probably was designed to do.

And since so far as I understand it the Muslims didn’t actually do anything but will still get blamed, it’s brilliant. There was an anonymous threat that may or may not have come from a Muslim. Suddenly, there’s “incalculable risk” and bang, it’s Islam’s fault.

Mind you, it might have been a Muslim. There might be risk. There are absolutely some nutbar Muslims about and this could be more evidence of their thuggery. Or it could all be bologna.

34

Can’t be. Mozart is German.

Now if they were cancelling Verdi, maybe… :wink:

35

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
There was an anonymous threat that may or may not have come from a Muslim. Suddenly, there’s “incalculable risk” and bang, it’s Islam’s fault.
[/QUOTE]
According to everything that I have heard (and at the moment that’s the biggest news story here) there wasn’t even a threat. People just feared that the scene might provoke attacks on the theater and a Berlin police agency considered it problematic.

36

It’s still incalculable, though.

37

[QUOTE=JohnT]
Can’t be. Mozart is German.

Now if they were cancelling Verdi, maybe… :wink:
[/QUOTE]

Someone touches Verdi and the gloves are coming off!

My poor, sweet, dead Giuseppe.

js “Verdi fangirl” goddess

38

Giuseppe Verdi = Joe Green.

Aida: insulting to Egyptians. Time for a riot!

39

Have the people of the western, civilized world become soooo used to the bullying of Islamic fanaticism that they no longer see what is happening here?

Let me just state it in terms even the most fanatical Muslim can understand. As far as I am concerned, you can do what you like in your own countries. Stone women, deny them education, hang queers, anything that turns your crank, Ali! The closest thing to a free and democratic Muslim country is Turkey, and with democracies like that, who needs dictatorships? There is NO WAY Muslims can understand our concepts of freedom and the rights of the individual.

But here again, as with Salman Rushdie, the Danish cartoons, the comments by the Pope and now this opera in Germany, Muslim international censorship is attacking freedom of expression in a western, democratic country. Muslims try to destroy our creative and artistic feedom and then scream and shout that we do not show respect for their traditions and values? Has it occurred to them that freedom of creativity and artitistic creation, as well as freedom of the press, are part of OUR traditions, and that some of us are ready to defend them, even at the cost of our lives?

Look, I once stayed at a guest house in Florida where one of the employees had a tatoo that showed Minnie Mouse masturbating herself with a crucifix! I would assume that that might be offensive to some Christians? But the fact is, it was his fucking arm and his fucking right to wear such a tatoo!

I do not give a rat’s ass if the opera shows Mohammed (Peace be Unto Him) being anally fornicated by a camel and enjoying it! The fact is that this is taking place in a free and democratic western country, and we are allowing ourselves once more to be cowed by Muslim fanaticism. Once more, Muslims are telling US what we can watch or read!

So, Mohammed, try this one on for size. The Quran says specifically that Jesus is NOT the son of God. Muslims state he was never crucified. Now then, that is a mighty offensive statement to many good Christian folk in western countries, right? So why don’t we all go on a rampage seizing and burning copies of the Quran in our countries? Why don’t we raid some Mosques in western countries and see what other publications or writings they may harbour that offend Christians? I am being sarcastic of course. Mosques are free to operate in our countries because we believe in freedom.

When the Danish cartoon controversy was raging, I supported Denmark by buying a pair of ECCO shoes. Best damned shoes I have ever had, too!

What could we do to support the German opera?

40

[QUOTE=kellner]
According to everything that I have heard (and at the moment that’s the biggest news story here) there wasn’t even a threat. People just feared that the scene might provoke attacks on the theater and a Berlin police agency considered it problematic.
[/QUOTE]

The OP cite says:

“She said she was told in August that the police had received an anonymous threat, but she acted only after extensive deliberations.”

Was that part mistaken?