Assimilating people has always been one of the strengths of the US. Alienation is a really, really big problem for European immigrants, and it’s not because of their religion. Anyone who says that is ill-informed at best and ill-intentioned at worst.
Please cite where I said Muslim fanatics don’t exist.
No actual threats have been made, and local Muslim groups actually want the opera to be shown, yet you want to paint a picture of Muslims fanatics going around killing people? A textbook case of hysteria.
Please point to a group which has as many violent fanatics as Islam can muster all over the world.
I’m not hysterical at all, I’m just annoyed. Just like I was annoyed when Border’s wouldn’t carry the issue of “Free Inquiry” magazine that reprinted a few of the Danish cartoons, or when Comedy Central refused to show an inocuous image of Muhammed handing Peter Griffin a football helmet on South Park but were perfectly OK with showing Jesus and George Bush shitting on each other. No threats were made in those instances, AFAIK, but said entities were so cowed by even the possibility of Muslim outrage and violence that they submitted to Islamic law without being asked.
[hijack]Pretty much wrong on all points there. Especially the lesbian couple, which was arguably the part of the film that was most faithful to the comic.[/hijack]
It isn’t Mozart. Personally I belong to the school of thought that all those guys who think they must “actualize” operas by adding new scenes (the most offensive the better), changing the lyrics (AAARGH) or telling the soprano that she must fellate the tenor on scene (in an recent interview to one of Spain’s current star sopranos she indicated that she’d refused to take a Lady of the Camelies when she was told that) should be stoned. Alternatively, they can be drawn and quartered.
Hey, if you’re gonna be a traditionalist, be one all the way.
So your only point was then to rant at me for not having the same hard-on to demonize Muslims as you?
So you blame every instance on Muslim fanatics, even if there’s none involved and the threats only exist in other people’s heads. That’s one of the more unhinged arguments I’ve heard in a while.
Theo Van Gogh was not killed because he was gay. Pim Fortuyn was killed by a Christian/secular nutter, and not because he was gay either.
If you’re going to try to turn one grotesque political murder into homophobia for your political purposes, you surely have to do another.
The threats don’t exist in people’s heads. There is unquestionably an established astmosphere of intimidation that leads to self-protective self-censorship. you know full well that if a web-site of your own mohammed cartoons with your name and address on it made it into the media you’d be rightly crapping yourself.
I’d be crapping myself if I did anything controversial and it was broadcast in the media with my name and address. Because of my name and address being at the fingertips of every kook in the world, not because I think Muslims are bullying me.
However, completely paralysing yourself because threats were being made towards some other people at some point is not “rightly” doing anything. If you’re too afraid to ever shop online because of credit card thieves, you’re not being bullied by them, you’re being hysterical.
There’s quite clearly a right and wrong in this case. A right for artist and everybody else to make whatever kind of shit they want. And a wrong to cancel shows for political or religious reasons. And there’s really nothing else to it. And it tells a very pathetic tale of SDMB that the first many replies to this subject was entirely on weather the artist was stupid – which he undoubtedly is, but which is also completely irrelevant.
What difference does it make weather it’s Mozart or some unknown stupid idiot? No difference at all! Actually the reverse, it’s the small guys with the unpopular opinion that needs freedom of speech the most and deserve to be protected.
Yes because, in a case involving death-threats and bullying an artist to remove controversial statements, the most important thing is weather a production of Mozard is silly?
What you think making changes to “extant pieces” should be a complete no-no. That they must never ever be reinterpretated for whatever reason, and should for all time be put up as they were in 1865?! Possible the most stupid comment I’ve ever read on SDMB. Last year we had a production of Hamlet in Helsingør played by a bunch of idiots (literally!) - and then there was the case of the French artist filling a big tank with human sperm – there’s a thread around here somewhere. Artist do all kinds of shit all the time (sometimes literally). Now I’m all for cutting public financing to all art. But as I remember, the last time that discussion was up on SDMB there was an overwhelming opinion against.
Free enterprise with threats and violence as input. Now how’s that for standing up for artistic integrity and freedom of speech! But what the hell! I’m busy! If an anonymous phone call is all it takes to stop shows I disagree with, I’ve got a whole lot of calling to do. Liberal shows are going to close down left and right I tell you.
Could you cite the specific instances of death threats and bullying in the case of this opera?
“the police had received an anonymous threat”
- so I reconed it was a death threat. Perhaps it was an arson threat? makes little difference. I supposed it wasn’t someone threatening to hold his breath till get got his way. Why does nitpicking the specifics of the threat matter to you? The only issue here is that a theater closed a production after a threat.
So long as they can imagine that there could be death threats and bullying, that’s all it takes to start shrieking about Islam.
Isn’t what violent fanatics actually do bad enough without inventing stuff and saying they did that, too?
This is a propagandist’s dream.
Go read post #44 and come back. Bring pie.
No. The issue here is that a theater closed production after a threat was apparently invented out of thin air.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7818357&postcount=44
I heard in the radio there were even some Muslim groups that had specifically asked that the show not be removed and now were asking that it be put back on and that they’d go see it in such a case. And debate its merits thereafter. It’s not that some Muslims are behaving terrible, the crux of the matter is that so many people in the west that ought to be the most firm defenders of fundamental values like freedom of speech are just too happy about selling them out at the least kind of opposition, even proactively so, or sacrifice them on some alter of multicultarism or misplaced attempt at being respectful to Islam.
Now that was a quick change of tone.
You know full well there is a world of difference between the chance of abstract fraud and the cast-iron, 100% certainty that you, your family and your property would be at the very least subject to protest and picket once some refugee from the middle ages decided to make hay with your cartoons.
This very incident is an example of the ‘chilling effect’ threats of violence from fundamentalist nutters is having. There are still artists in hiding. Ask Rushdie, ask Theo Van Gogh or the woman with the verses from the koran on her beaten body how unreal the threat is.
Thankfully this is something we need not argue about. Register Mohhamedwasamurderingbandit.com and get drawing. When ready let me know and I’ll publicize it in the appropriate places. Don’t forget your name and address.
If you actually went through with that you are a much braver man than I.
We can’t simply pretend there is not a threat from the fundamentalist wing of a religion.
There are around 1.6 million Muslims in the UK. 140,000 of these, give or take, are down with violence. Coming on for half a million want Sharia Law of the handchopping variety.
It only takes one of these maniacs, armed with your personal details, to ruin your day and in these circumstances the ‘chilling effect’ is perfectly undestandable and is based on a demonstrably real threat. At the same time none of us worry about upsetting Christians or Buddhists.
For the record I’m as liberal as they come but as far as I’m concerned that 480,000 back to the dark ages types can pack their friggin’ bags and go and I don’t care if they were born here or not. As far as i’m concerned there are limits to tolerance. Such beliefs are completely incompatible with the values and culture of my country and if they do not want to live in a secular democracy under a secular legal system they can f**k off to somewhere they feel more at home.
You seem to have some severe comprehension problems because I nowhere blamed Muslims for the closing of the show, and jsgoddess just jerked her knee and jumped on the everybody hates Islam wagon so I must defend. On the contrary, I put all blame on the pussies (some in this thread) without an inch of backbone that’re willing to bend over at the slightest provocation. And if there was no actual threat it just make their pro-active capitulation that much more despicable.
When back bring brain.
Except for the little death threat bit. You apportioned no blame to Muslims in that. Nosirree.
And thanks for the compliment.