Ms. Forums-you're all nuts

The BBQ Pit
81

Gee, MsPoster. Thanks a heap for the suggestion. Take a fucking look around you, will you? Read the fucking rules for this fucking forum, will you? Or better yet, roll them in a tube and stuff them up your ass.

This is the BBQ Pit, a place where we get to vent when someone is a total fucktard to us. Lucky for me, that’s where this thread started.

And read the fucking rules for the fucking MsForum while you’re at it, why don’t you? The place is not closed off to men, for a very good reason. That thread wasn’t marked, “Women only (men don’t read)”. Why not? The OP also didn’t state, “Please don’t post here unless you agree with my stupid fucking overexaggerated thesis that makes no goddamn sense.” Why not?

Instead, you fuckers decide to break the sensible rules of your own forum and respond to honest conversation with snotty bullshit smileys and stupid fucking insults.

So, yes, Dee (you?) made me angry. Angrier than I’ve felt in a long time, because frankly, I’ve encountered people that rude very few times in my life. Dee found my buttons to push, and she pushed them but good.

Piss off, or say something interesting.
Daniel

82

It was my understanding that feminism was an issue that affected and involved men as well as women. Would not a male perspective not only be welcome, but actually encouraged in order to come to a fuller grasp of the issues?

Here at the SDMB, we allow just about anyone to post and participate (exceptions are made for those who show themselves to be hopeless jerks; luckily such folks are few and far between). Perhaps I’m just spoiled by the SDMB, but I’ve always liked the idea of a board that doesn’t turn people away just because they are male, or female, or white or black or old or young or atheist or Christian or whatever.

The Ms boards can do what they want - I have no say in what goes on there. However, if DanielWithrow is banned from the discussion, the discussion will lose an intelligent and interesting contributor.

Telling someone to “stay out of a discussion [they] are not wanted in” smacks of close-mindedness and a lack of appreciation for other viewpoints.

83

Thank you for the welcome, Daniel and Malkavia. I’ve actually posted here before (not prolifically), under a different handle, but it’s been months now since I’ve posted.

I just wanted to make a few points in posting, and don’t have a lot of time to put into this, but I wanted to see how I would be treated, and plus, I figured it would be a good opportunity to re-register (my last one was lost when my computer died a month ago or so).

Tranquilis, make of my posts what you will – I see that you are, anyway. You are reducing down my words through a filter of your own making, and getting it wrong in the process, discarding my attempt to prevent such an assumption. Are you doing that on purpose?

Take a look at how way too many children are raised today: in front of the television and hanging out with their friends because their parents aren’t home. When the parents ARE home, many of them let their kids see inappropriate movies and television shows, without giving them feedback on what is true, what is not, what is desirable, what is bullshit, and what is strictly created to foster desire and emotion – emotion that will bring them back time and time again, whether or not it’s a productive or positive emotion.

The media/consumer relationship is a two-way street only to a degree. Women have been used as chattel to promote and sell products and desirability for generations – who do you think started this trend? Women? I don’t think so. It has only snowballed from there, with larger degrees of nudity and blatant sexuality, made by men, designed for men to salivate over and women to emulate. Women never rose up and said we want to see a disproportionate ratio of nude women to nude men in both mainstream and porn magazines and movies. They really don’t care much about that sort of feedback, because they know what will make them money, and until that changes, until men are willing to forgo the objectification and spend their money elsewhere, it will continue.

Max said:

**And your solution is not to raise children strong enough to resist those expectations and live as they feel they should, but to remove such images from popular culture? **

Where did I say that? I would say, “why should we have to fight those harmful images?” Am I talking censorship? No, I’m talking a complete sea change in attitude and behavior for the good of all. Yeah, idealistic, and completely unlikely to happen. But it sucks that in raising our children we have to say, “see Johnny, I know that everywhere you look, it seems that women are only good for sex and servant activities, but actually that isn’t true.” Or to Jill, “sure, it’s okay to go out in public alone, but you might have to worry about being molested by a group of males if you don’t comply with their orders for you to pull your blouse up.” Strong is good; strong and at the very least respectfully egalitarian is better.

I don’t have the time tonight to continue much longer (maybe I shouldn’t have posted to begin with, not having the time to see a conversation all the way through). But one thing I would like to say is that we have had more troll invasions at Ms. than you can imagine. Feminists are a popular target. We have many groups who feel free to come in and try to demean and invalidate, like Cat Six, and it just doesn’t go over well. Remember, you have visited Ms. as a guest, yet some seem to be behaving better in your own ‘home’ here than in your host’s.

84

Thanks, Black Knight – that’s the first smile I’ve had in over an hour. I really shouldn’t get so worked up over some shithead’s insults to me; on the bright side, it means that compliments from total strangers can make me grin sillily.

I’ll be surprised if I get banned over there. Part of what makes the whole deal so awful is that the people being shits over there are violating their own MB rules, not me. And then they turn around and accuse ME of having poor manners.

But I should develop thicker skin. It is true, of course, that not every male intellectual action is done for the sake of a female audience ;).

Daniel

85

BlackKnight I wholeheartedly agree with you that men and women are both affected and in need of feminism. However, just as it would be inappriopriate for women to dominate a discussion on male sexuality, male impotence or such, there are some topics that are inappriorate for men to dominate and some that they have little to offer. I don’t believe any of you were actually interested in discussion (if you were it would have been quite clear and the discussion would have continued. Instead it turned into an argument, which is not the same as a discussion by the way)

I really doubt that a discussion about women’s orgasm will lose all that much if men kept quiet and let women say what they want to say (I know it’s hard! but sometimes you just have to defer to the experts)

86

Interesting points, Tinaah. I disagree with some of them (frex, I don’t think you can account for the nudity in Cosmo et al except by saying that it’s driven by a market made up of women), but they’re definitely worth discussing.

However, I wonder if it’d be more appropriate to start a thread under great debates for this?

Of course, I recognize you might not stay here for long. I hope you do, though, and if you do, I’d encourage you to start a thread over there.

I’m a relative newbie to this MB (despite having made my first post about 2 years ago, I spent most of that time in apostasy). And I’ve found the people here crude and sarcastic and warm and welcoming and always ready for a good intellectual discussion.

Daniel

87

Perhaps we weren’t reading the same thread. The original post in the thread at Ms. was not about women’s orgasms, but about men’s “co-opting” of women’s orgasms. A male viewpoint ought to be highly valued in such a thread.

88

MsPoster, you folks had the opportunity to turn it into a discussion. Instead, you opted to turn it into an argument yourselves.

Tinaah -

And how is this the media’s fault? Sounds like Parent Trouble to me.

89

One of my favourite feminist quotes ever is this one from Audre Lorde :

“And our sons must become men – such men as we hope our daughters, born and unborn, will be pleased to live among.”

Our sons, our brothers, our partners, our male friends, our male workmates will not become such men as our daughters will be pleased to live among as the result of villification for all the past and present wrongs committed by individuals with whom the only thing they share is their gender.

Nor will excluding them from the feminist discourse bring about change. There will be no equality for women without the active participation of men in bringing about change; something that 30 years on, the most extreme proponents of feminism seem not yet to have acknowledged.

Ironic, isn’t it, that men viewing women as truly equal, and men being willing to fight for the establishment and maintenance of that equality will probably be brought about by those of us who can reject the notion that “testosterone is the root of all oppression of women” long enough to interact with men as equals and have them perceive for themselves the benefits of our equality - not by those who reject the opinions and actions of men as being part of some vast glabal patriarchal conspiracy.

90

I think you’re misunderstanding the point behind the thread then. It is about women putting on a performance on for men. In other words, not how men see women who orgasm, but how women are taught to act based on those images, how women might feel pressure to perform similarly and how distorted an image of an sex might be interpreted since women are joining men in their usage of porn but porn isn’t changing all that much. This is ENTIRELY from a womans perspective and a man’s perspective in this is completely irrelevent.

I think women hear quite enough from men on this topic, IMNSHO. Is it so bad to just listen? I don’t understand why that is so hard. Why does every discussion need your ‘male’ perspective? I don’t feel the need to inject my voice everywhere. For example if there were a table of black women discussing how the media’s imagery impacts their sexual identity, should I expect anyone at that table to give a rat’s ass what I, a white woman has to say about that? I don’t think I should, do you?

91

Oh, please. First, I’m one fucking man, not a battalion. Second, by the time I posted there, y’all were already too busy beating the shit out of the WOMEN who disagreed with you to pay me any attention. I only got attention after the fourth time I tried to turn the discussion from attacking each other to addressing the original point.

And don’t be dense. If you think I wasn’t interested in a discussion, you weren’t fucking reading what I was posting. Reread my posts in that thread from the beginning, if it’s not too much work. I’m not the one that turned it into an argument: it was Ferbert’s fucking :rolleyes: and Redbud’s fucking troll accusations that did that. Even then, I played nice and kept trying to honestly discuss the proposition until Dee became a total shit toward me.

Intellectual dishonesty like you’re showing may be kosher over there, pal, but your shit gets called here.

Daniel

92

It would be inappropriate for them to dominate the discussion; it would be perfectly appropriate for them to participate. You suggested that someone butt out of the conversation altogether, not that he tone down what he was saying or anything like that.

Moreover, the topic at hand is not just ‘women’s sexuality’. It is about women and men’s sexuality. Surely you can see that even from the OP on the Ms boards, men were considered involved in the topic? Men have a right to be involved in any discussion about them. The discussion, as with all discussions of the “patriarchy”, is at least partially about men. Therefore, men should be able to contribute.

I disagree. Disagreeing with someone is not the same as arguing with them. (At least, it doesn’t have to be.) Imagine if I said, “The Ms members were obviously not interested in actually discussing anything, just reinforcing their preconcieved notions. That’s why the ‘discussion’ turned into an argument when dissenting view arrived.” If I said that, I’d be just as wrong as you when you say, "I don’t believe any of you were actually interested in discussion … "

The discussion was not about “women’s orgasm”. It was about women’s orgasm, the media, the “patriarchy”, men, men’s views of sex, women’s views of sex, pornography, etc. Men obviously have something to say about many of these things.

Imagine if I started a discussion on this board titled “When a man can’t get it up, it’s always the woman’s fault”. Imagine if you then posted disagreement with my basic premise, and I told you that you didn’t have grounds for even being in the discussion because you are not male and therefore have nothing to say about impotence. You’d feel a little angry, right?

93

I don’t know how you can sit there an act like you’re being unfairly judged or mistreated. You have a thread here, bashing a discussion taking place on another board, some of you go there, and lets be honest, you went there for kicks with every intention of disrupting the conversation, and you get called on your rude behavior, exposed for your mocking thread and it’s all because (some) feminist’s are close minded and exclusionary? I actually think this group is a mature bunch otherwise I wouldn’t be here, so I ask you actually give some thought to the notion that it is rude to force yourselves on a discussion like you did. That you would act all hurt-like is quite a mystery.

94

As for the perspective of a man being irrelevant in your foolishly not-humble opinion – too fucking bad. I wasn’t violating MB rules like you were, I was being polite, and I was offering real stories from my history.

Had you said, “Daniel, I recognize that you have opinions about this, but for now, would you mind listening and letting us hash through this?” you woulda found me very graceful in backing out.

Instead, posters there were absolutely shitty and rude and insulting and dishonest toward me. Turned the discussion into flames in a totally destructive and avoidable fashion.

You and your foolishly not-so-humble opinion may think that my penis excuses your rudeness. Well, look where your rudeness got you: what could’ve been an interesting discussion (and which could have even been an interesting ovaries-only discussion, if you’d used a little tact) nosedived into horrible nastiness.

Daniel

95

And now you’re fucking psychic? How in seven blue hells do you know they weren’t trying to have an intelligent discussion? Would you even KNOW an intelligent discussion if it hit you over the head with a lead crystal frying pan?

96

Msposter, If men are being criticized, they have a right to rebut. Period.

And kindly don’t pull this “a discussion isn’t an argument” bit. For starters, assertions aren’t definitions; why are they dissimilar other than your wish that they be so? If it’s due to disagreement then I cry Bullshit: while I’m sure that some gentle souls would prefer that there be no disagreement, writers of extremist comments should expect reactions, and should be able to defend what they wrote. That is not “patriarchal”, it’s intellectually honest. Discussing ideas is more than just sitting around the circle and nodding sagely at whatever nonsense passes the lips of those that you’re trying to fit in with.

97

No, let’s be honest, shall we? You don’t fucking know what you’re talking about, and you’re not even reading the thread that you’re fucking talking about.

Since you’re too lazy and intellectually dishonest to actually look at my contributions to the thread, let’s distill some of them, shall we?

Show me, you incredibly obnoxious person, where the trolling comment is in all that. Or if you wanna do some work of your own, quote my trolls from the thread yourself.

You say you’re here because you think we’re mature. THen why the fuck are you here? You persist in being dishonest, in distorting both the original post, the posts that followed up the original posts, the source of the arguments, the rules of the message board, and my participation in that thread. Who the fuck are you trying to kid?

Put up or shut up. Let’s see your evidence. We’re big on evidence over here.
Daniel

98

Okay, let’s nip this chunk of bullshit in the bud. Daniel himself posted a link to this thread on the FIRST PAGE of the thread on Ms. There was no “exposure”, the SDMBers who went over there were not “ferreted out” or “discovered.” So don’t pretend we skulked over there like nighttime raiders or something. If you didn’t know where the new people came from, it is solely because you failed to actually read what Daniel posted.

I didn’t see any “forcing” going on until someone (a female, I remind you) dared to post a contradictory viewpoint and was subsequently treated rudely by the other posters. You are not the victim; you fired the first shot.

99

I’ve never talked about female orgasms with females (unless you count my health teacher in seventh grade, and in that case she did most of the talking). Neither have any of my male friends. Where are all these men going around talking to women about women’s orgasms? Honestly, I’m curious why you feel men’s voices have been heard on this subject; I don’t think they have been.

I’d prefer if you didn’t automatically assume that since I’m male I have poor listening skills. That type of sexist generalization really rubs me the wrong way, and is not something I would expect to see from someone who claims to be about equality.

Not every discussion does. Every discussion about men does. The discussion in question most emphatically was about men (and women, and a lot of other stuff).

You certainly felt the need to inject your voice here. (Which, I predict, will ultimately be a good thing. I hope.)

There is a difference between intruding on a private conversation at a table somewhere and participating in an online forum which is supposedly open to men as well as women. Imagine if a group of people gathered together and talked regularly. They tell you you’re invited to their discussions. You show up, and they tell you you aren’t wanted. How would you feel?

100

I really think that the original issue being discussed is a quite important one, and one which could make a quite interesting debate at the SDMB.

I’m happy to start a GD thread on the extent to which men influence women’s expectations of relationships and sexuality if anyone’s interested in having a serious discussion about the issue outside of the Pit.

Tinaah, multiple user names are forbidden here, so you’ll need to email one of the administrators to get them to close one of your registrations.