Why Lewiston ME? Even now, it’s only a moderately large city, and the fight was almost 50 years ago.
It was originally supposed to be in Boston but various public officials in Massachusetts, especially Suffolk County D.A. Garrett Byrne, were making it difficult to hold the fight there. The stated objection, or one of them at least, was that Liston’s purported promotor (Sam Silverman) was only a front for the true promoter (Intercontinental Promotions), which was not licensed in the state. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1077216/index.htm
Thanks bibliophage! After posting this, I asked Jeeves, and found a Yankee article about it.
At the risk of getting roasted and toasted (once again) . . .
Here’s the scoop from what I was told by old-timers that were very connected to the world of boxing at that time and I’m not making this stuff up. I’m talking about NYC old-timers that were connected to the game and champions:
Liston was a very troubled person but he was a dominant boxer. He was the best of his time. Yet, he carried a lot of baggage, not to mention a prison record. He was the big tough black guy that the establishment loved to hate.
Clay (Ali) was an up-and-comer. He was brash, mouthy and arrogant. But all of that spelled money and a revival of interest in boxing.
Cassius Clay fought Liston for the championship in Miami. The bought was fixed but the only one that didn’t know that was Clay. His trainer, Angelo Dundee knew it. In (I think it was) the 5th round Clay got blinded by some lineament that got into his eye. At the end of the round he couldn’t see and asked Dundee to cut off the gloves. Dundee knew that his guy was going to win and sent him out for the sixth round. Dundee was not one to send out an injured fighter. Clay survived the round. Liston, sensing that the “kid” might quit didn’t come out for the nest round. End of fight, Clay the new champion. The payoff for Liston, he got a small percentage of Clay’s future fights.
Shortly after, Clay became a Muslim and changed his name to Muhammad Ali. This brought on a whole new set of problems in promoting the kid. The rematch with Liston was to be fought in Boston but somehow got move to Lewiston, ME., of all places. The conversion of Ali to the Muslim religion probably had a lot to do with it.
Again, Liston knew he had to lose. Therefore, the phantom punch in the first round. Yes, there was a punch but it wouldn’t have knocked any of us out. Liston took his paycheck, went home and lived off of his slice of Ali’s earnings.
Liston was a tragic figure. I won’t go into his life history. What I was told was that he was very afraid of needles. Yet, he was found dead, supposedly of a heroin overdose in Las Vegas. There are a lot of insiders that think he was murdered. Esquire wrote a great article about him many years ago.
None of this is to say that Ali wasn’t a great boxer or not “The Greatest” He was spectacular. However, when he fought Liston he really wasn’t ready to assume the championship but he was ready to serve as a money making machine for the sport of boxing. He did a great job of maturing into his title. He was that good. Boxing couldn’t let Liston to get in the way of it’s future.
I love Ali. I also have a certain respect for Liston who the media wanted us all to hate at the time but never really got his due. That’s what tragedy is about.
Take this for what it’s worth. It’s all hearsay but it’s from people that were a lot closer to the business that any of us have ever been.
There are a few things to think about with that theory tho.
First Ali recovered from the vision problems and was doing really well before Liston quit. Ali was in no danger of quiting and had taken over the fight pretty comfortably. Another point would be that Liston was trying very hard to get Ali out of there while he was blind. He was throwing some big shots. If the fight was fixed, Liston wouldn’t risk knocking out a blind Ali.
As far as the rematch, I don’t think it was fixed. I think it was just a goofy little punch that dropped liston and he didn’t really have the willpower to want to win at that point in his life. You have to remember, Liston didn’t just fake getting Ko’d. He actually beat the ref"s ten count, resumed fighting for about 20 seconds. Then Nat Fleischer told the ref (Joe Walcott) that Liston had been down over 10 seconds and the fight was over. Walcott then waived off the fight. If Liston was throwing it he would have stayed down for the whole ten count.
Interesting, but other than heresay, is there anything else? I was just a kid during the fight, but I do recall that Liston was percieved as the “white man’s” choice.
You don’t have to be crazy to believe the first fight was legitimate. However, Clay asked Dundee to cut off the gloves, Dundee pushed him out and Liston quit in his corner at the next break. Hmmmmm. Dundee was a great manager. He really cared about his fighters and looked out for them.
As for the second fight, I almost think you have to be crazy to think that Liston didn’t take a dive. No boxer that big or strong or experienced goes flat on his back from that punch. At the time there were a lot of people calling “fix”.
You are absolutely right that at the time Liston was seen as the “white man’s” choice. The Civil Rights movement was in it’s early stages and here comes this brash, loud-mouthed, arrogant kid who didn’t have an ounce of “Uncle Tom” in him. A lot of whites wanted nothing more than for Liston to knock him cold and shut him up. Clay/Ali tapped into the fears that a lot of whites had of the Civil Rights movement. That fueled a lot of interest in boxing and it was apparent that Clay/Ali had unlimited earning potential. If you didn’t like him you hated him but everyone paid attention.
Yeah Liston getting dropped so early was weird but not unheard of. Sometimes fighters are more vulnerable to punches the first few minutes of the fight before they’re warmed up. See Joe Calzaghe vs both Hopkins and Jones.
I still say if Liston threw it then he wouldn’t he gotten up and beaten the count. He would have stayed down for the ten count.
If Ali upset Liston twice and then had a lackluster career then yeah, maybe it was fixed. But he didn’t, he went on to become the best or second best (behind Joe Louis) heavyweight ever. It’s not hard to believe that he was just better than a 33 (probably older) year old, uninterested Liston. Aside from doing a demolition job on Patterson, Liston’s resume isn’t super impressive really.
I know Liston was known for a great chin, he fought most of the fight with Marshell with a broken jaw, and then went down from one punch from Ali. Doesn’t make sense right? Well Ali fought most of the fight with Norton with a broke jaw, but went down from one punch from Henry Cooper.
When I see the first fight, I see Ali outboxing Liston who is getting frustrated. Ali gets blinded from the ointment and Liston goes for broke. By the next round Ali has regained his sight and resumes outboxing Liston; however now Liston is getting tired from expending all his energy trying to end the fight he was losing. So Ali is becoming even more dominate. The bell rings, Liston is cut, tired, and looking painfully slow compared to Ali. He mumbles something about his shoulder and loses the title on the stool.
Liston trains harder than ever for the rematch. He’s gonna go in there and get his belt back. The fight starts and its more of the same, he’s old and just can’t catch Ali. He lunges in with a punch from way out of range and gets caught coming in off balance and gets dropped. Not really hurt but at this point he loses all his will to fight anymore. He tries to just stay down but because Walcott botches the count it becomes obvious that Liston should be able to get up by now. So he does. They resume fighting for 20 seconds and Nat Fleischer yells to Walcott that Liston was down for 14 seconds and tells him to stop the fight. He’s not an official, he’s just the editor of Ring Magazine. For some reason Walcott listens to him and stops it.
It’s goofy but it’s a goofy sport sometimes.
Willcross, I think you are stretching it. What you say makes for great drama but I don’t think it is the best explanation. A number of the books on boxing that I have read say that Clay/Ali was really scared going into that fight. He did crazy things just to try to get inside Liston’s head. He was still a kid and not really ready to take on a banger like Liston. That’s why when things went haywire he asked Dundee to cut off the gloves. That’s not to say he wasn’t the real deal, he was. His talent was enormous.
Boxing was in a bad state at the time. There were all kinds of accusations of corruption. The promoters were below sleezy. It was generally assumed that everything was controlled.
Cassius Clay appears on the scene and he is the salvation of the sport. He has everybody interested. He had unique talent, good looks, charisma, media savvy . . . and . . . he had an Olympic Gold Medal (as opposed to Liston’s prison record). What he didn’t have was maturity and his body had not really become a heavyweight’s body. He was still basically a light-heavyweight. That’s not someone that you want to fight a mature guy like Liston. Still, boxing being what it is/was, you are not going to put a gold mine like Clay/Ali in a position where he might get defeated if you can do something about it. Not when you’ve got a hapless character like Liston that will listen to what you tell him to do and is used to it.
Your analysis of the Lewiston fight and the comparisons just don’t seem right. It would be one thing if Liston left himself open to a great punch. There was hardly a punch at all. It was as if Liston is thinking, “the first thing that bounces off my chin will put me on my back. I’m not going through rounds of punishment if I’m going to lose anyway.” The referee is probably telling him, “get up you stiff, you’re embarrassing all of us.” Thus, he beats the count. The bout is in, of all places, Lewiston, ME, so the chances of a riot are minimal. From there, boxing moves on to some great contests and some huge paydays. In no way am I suggesting that all of boxing is fixed. Quite the contrary.
Yes, Ali fought with a broken jaw, did his best to protect it and didn’t get knocked out. Yes, he got dropped by Cooper but Cooper was another banger that connected with a haymaker. Ali bounced right back up. He didn’t lay there on the canvas.
Again, admittedly my information is total hearsay. However, I did hear it from boxing gym owners and boxing trainers. I didn’t just make it up or hear it in a bar conversation.
You entire presumption seems to hinge on the claim that Ali asked to have the gloves cut off and Dundee refused the request because he knew the fix was in. I’ve never heard this before and it’s pretty thin. First, unless Ali admits it I’m not sure why the claim that he asked out is so believable. Second, if it were true you’re assuming that Dundee would never have sent Ali out there and refused to call the fight. If he thought Ali was hurt and at risk that might make some sense, but aside from the burning eyes Ali was in good form. Dundee just as likely sent him back out there because he knew the eyes were clearing up after being washed out and knew that Ali needed the kick in the pants. Part of the reason you have a coach/trainer is to have him push you further than you think you can go.
You’re making it sound like Ali was Rocky against Clubber Lang, getting his ass handed to him and death being a real possibility. No one watching that fight would claim Ali was going back out there and walking out there with his life in his hands.
I think we pretty much agree on the rematch actually.
Your version
“It was as if Liston is thinking, “the first thing that bounces off my chin will put me on my back. I’m not going through rounds of punishment if I’m going to lose anyway.” The referee is probably telling him, “get up you stiff, you’re embarrassing all of us.” Thus, he beats the count”
My version
“He lunges in with a punch from way out of range and gets caught coming in off balance and gets dropped. Not really hurt but at this point he loses all his will to fight anymore. He tries to just stay down but because Walcott botches the count it becomes obvious that Liston should be able to get up by now. So he does.”
You say my version has more drama to it, but I think it’s more of an occam’s razor explanation. I think the mafia conspiracy and fixed fights has more drama than a slugger not being able to deal with speed and reflexes and giving up.
Also I think you can’t argue with the fact that Ali had regained control of the 1st fight and wasn’t about to quit. Liston hadn’t landed anything meaningful in awhile and Ali was looking good. So if it’s not hard to believe Liston got frustrated and quit the first fight, it’s not hard to believe he did the same in the second. I think we can both agree the shoulder excuse was bogus in the first fight tho lol.
I’m not saying either one of us is right or wrong, these two fights have been debated for almost 50 years now and no one will ever know.
Also the mafia wanting their own guy to lose, and now have a new champ in Ali that they couldn’t control wouldn’t make sense. What’s the point of revitalizing the sport if your man isn’t champ anymore? Notice no one claims the mafia rigged any fights after Ali vs Liston II? If the mafia had that much control and if Ali was so vulnerable that early in his career, then they should have let him beat Ali. Liston’s marketability would go way up since he shut up the loudmouth that everyone hated. And the mafia could keep backing him for another 5 years then cash him out against Frazier.
Not at all. Liston was disliked by the boxing press because of the way he had demolished the popular Floyd Patterson. Clay had a gold medal and made good copy. While most people agreed he had no chance against Liston, most everyone liked him (until he converted to Islam).
As for R. P. McMurphy’s hypothesis, it’s very foolish to trust the stories told by old-timers connected to boxing. I seriously doubt any of them were in a position to know the actual facts of the bout. Old baseless rumors are baseless rumors nonetheless.
As for Lewiston, Ali had already scored a couple of blows to Liston’s head. The knockdown punch was really a combination – a right that put Liston off balance and falling forward and a left to his face as he fell, giving it extra force. Seeing Liston’s face and actions as he rolled on the canvas, it’s clear he was hurt. Even still, he got up and tried to continue the bout (though the video also shows he was down for more than ten seconds). He wanted to continue; if he were throwing the fight, why get up?
Still, we haven’t seen the answer to the question “Lewiston?”
I agree with all but the bolded part of your post. It doesn’t look to me like Clay landed that left: Muhammad Ali knockout Sonny Liston in Slow Motion - YouTube
Actually, we are pretty much in agreement. It’s like the Kennedy assassination. After 50 years things get so muddled that if someone were to come out with an accounting of what happened, chapter and verse, there would still be a significant percentage that still wouldn’t believe it. So it goes. Thank you. While I disagree with your assessment, we aren’t going to solve it. It’s one of those things.
All that being said, I’ve held a always held a conditional respect for Sonny Liston. This guy came from an upbringing that almost doomed him for failure from the start. Yea, he was a bad guy that did some bad things but on some level he made something of himself. Here we are, 50 years later, still talking about him. He was a tragic figure but I never thought he was all bad. On a significant level he was admirable. If, and just a hypothetical if, he did throw the two fights I don’t blame him personally. Boxing was an incredibly corrupt sport at the time. Sonny did what Sonny had to do for Sonny. Whatever it was, there is no condemnation on my part.
Yes, we kind of did. Boxing wasn’t what it became after the Ali era. Champions fought regularly, not every six months or every year. When Tyson was coming up Cus D’Amato had him fighting every three weeks. Look at the dates and records of guys like Sugar Ray Robinson and Rocky Marciano. Larry Holmes was fighting all the time compared to the guys these day.
Liston and Ali were supposed to fight in Boston. After Ali aligned himself with Elijah Mohammed (after the Miami fight), around the time of the assassination of Malcolm X, security became a huge concern. The rematch got delayed and the security concerns, whether there was a fix or not, were huge. Probably the promoters just wanted to stage the fight wherever the venue was. Lewiston wasn’t all that far from Boston so it was more a matter of “let’s just hold the fight, get it over, and take it from there”.
I think Ali just had Liston’s number.
Ali did the most incredible psych job in boxing history in the first fight. He got Liston to think it was going to be easy, another first round knockout, when Ali was the slickest heavyweight in history. And Liston quit on his stool. If he spoke Spanish he would have said “No mas”.
And in the second one, he was just old and not completely warmed up, and didn’t believe he could win. When he got tagged, his head wasn’t right and he went down for the count.
The reason the fight was in Lewiston is because it wasn’t that popular a match. Liston couldn’t draw flies, and Ali was nowhere near as popular as he later became. It was a match between a Bad Guy and a Crazy Guy, who nobody could quite make out at that point. Ali had not established that he could fight as good as he could talk, and the big mouth act didn’t go over as well early in his career.
Liston was managed by gangsters, and Ali was involved with the Black Muslims. Nobody wanted either of them to win.
Liston was a hell of a fighter, and could have been great, but he burned himself out during years at the Number One contender position because Patterson, or more properly Patterson’s trainer Cus Damato, was scared to death of him. And rightly so - Patterson was an overstuffed middleweight, and lasted less than four minutes total in two bouts with Liston. By that time, Liston had nothing much left.
Don’t know if Liston was using heroin at that point, but I believe his addiction was the reason for his comeback. His mobster managers stole most of his money, and he spent the rest on heroin.
Liston fought, I think, twelve times during his comeback. He only lost to Leotis Martin, who knocked him out, and then Liston knocked out Chuck Wepner, who went almost the full fifteen rounds against Ali, and allegedly was the inspiration for the original Rocky movie. Liston could still hit anyone who stood still long enough - he gave Martin a detached retina that ended Martin’s career, but Liston died of a heroin overdose in 1970, and nobody much cared.
Liston was mean and scary, but it is hard not to feel sorry for him. But it was the 1950s - criminals weren’t misunderstood, they were bad. Liston got it a lot worse growing up than Ali, and suffered more from the Jim Crow of the times, but he never got any sympathy for it. Poor bastard. Even the NAACP didn’t like him.
Regards,
Shodan
I don’t think you have to be crazy to think that Ali’s right from Clay-Liston II was at the very least a legit knockdown. Some ringside commenters said at the time that it “couldn’t have dented a grape,” but a punch that doesn’t look all that hard at all to an onlooker can be devastating to the face that’s getting punched. Marciano’s KO of Walcott looks pretty hard at regular speed and even harder in slow motion, but photographs of the punch (here and here) show his face contorted into a cartoon character’s from the force.
A slow motion replay of Ali’s punch shows it landed right on his button and snapped his head around pretty good. What it looks like to me was that Liston overextended, got caught, and had a flash knockout that he might have been able to bounce back pretty quickly from. I think Liston didn’t bounce back immediately partially because Ali hadn’t returned to his corner and Walcott was slow on the count trying to control Ali, and partially because Ali was already in his head a little bit and the punch confirmed some fears. That apparently gibes with some of what Liston said about it:
http://www.boxing-memorabilia.com/bioliston2.htm
What Liston isn’t saying is that it’s every bit to his advantage if the count is long, and he has no reason to stand up any earlier than he has to. A long count means he has a few extra seconds to recuperate from the hit, or even just to regain a little bit of wind. Ultimately nobody knows how hard the punch landed except Liston, but I don’t think it’s completely unreasonable to see it as a fair knockdown.