Multiple universes don't refute intelligent design

Our universe is fine-tuned to allow the existence of ourselves. That is to say, there are many things that have to be just as they are, and we wouldn’t exist otherwise. Citing just one example, the mass ratio of the proton to the electron has to be almost exactly 1836. Were it very much larger or smaller, stable atoms would not exist. Without stable atoms, we would not exist. There are many other similar examples: sizes and charges of particles, strength of basic forces, relative abundance of mass and energy in the universe, and so forth. Each one had to be set at exactly the right value in order for us to start existing.

The most common, and common sense, response to this series of facts is to believe that the universe was created by an intelligent being who intended for intelligent life to live in the universe.

There is an alternate explanation, which in outline goes like this. Suppose we imagine a huge number of universes, each with a slightly different mass ratio of the proton to the electron. One has a ratio of 1835, another 1836, another 1837, and so forth. Now among these universes, the vast majority would be wastelands devoid of life. But life could exist in one of the many universes, specifically the one where the ratio is 1836. Hence a universe with the right ratio could exist without being designed by an intelligent being.

And if someone points out another physical constant that must have a certain value? No worries. Just reach into your rectum and pull out more imaginary universes. Problem solved! True, when the process gets finished, the number of imaginary universes is going to be enormous. In fact, many proponents of this theory give up on capping them at any finite number, and simply decide that there are infinitely many universes.

This theory should convince anybody, with the exception of people who don’t believe in imaginary things.

For them, we must ask what the actually evidence for the theory of many universes (TMU, from now on). In 2003, Scientific American published an article called “Infinite Earths in Parallel Universes Actually Exist”. Now you might expect that an article with such a title in a scientific magazine would offer evidence that infinite earths in parallel universes actually exist. You’d be wrong. The article offers three lines of evidence:

First, observations of the cosmos in some bands of radiation might produce evidence of parallel universes at some point in the future.

Second, the astrophysics community has reached consensus on the issue. (Some astrophysicists were quite surprised to learn this.)

Third, an argument by analogy. A computer program that prints all whole numbers may be easier to write than one that produces a certain number or set of numbers, so why shouldn’t something similar be true for universes?

I find none of these arguments convincing. On the first, proof by future proof is not a valid proof technique. The second is not true. On the third, computers are devices designed to let a programmer give orders, hence different from the scenario of universes.

Richard Dawkins also uses TMU as part of his proof that “God almost certainly does not exist” in The God Delusion. He offers up other scenarios than merely infinite parallel universes. He proposes a single universe giving birth to huge numbers of child universes, or a scheme whereby universes produce offspring and are subject to natural selection, gradually producing new universes that are favorable to intelligent life. Dawkins devotes some effort to showing that these ideas are really clever, but (as with almost every claim that he makes in the book) he apparently feels no need to show that they’re true.

In a rare moment of intellectual honesty, Dawkins admits that there are physicists who reject TMU. He then explains that they are not qualified to have an opinion on this question of physics because they haven’t studied enough evolutionary biology. I doubt I’m the only one who views this argument as completely inane, like saying that people aren’t qualified to discuss the Harry Potter books until they’ve studied organic chemistry.

But suppose I agree to lay aside these issues for a moment. Suppose the science fiction writers are right, the scientists are wrong, and one of these zany scenarios actually exists. Does it adequately remove the need for an intelligent designer?

Nope. If our fine-tuned universe was birthed off of a multiverse, it raises the obvious question, “Who fine-tuned the multiverse?”

A ‘mother universe’ with the capability to produce child universes still needs fine-tuning to produce a universe fit for life. For instance suppose that all the child universes have exactly the same physical laws as the mother. If so, the scheme breaks down. Or suppose that the child universes produce only protons and no electrons. None of them will ever support life. Or suppose that all particles in the child universes are attracted to each other. Once again, no chance for life. Or suppose that the child universes include protons and electrons and a variety of physical laws, but the range of mass ratios doesn’t include 1836. The bottom line is, you still need someone to do the fine-tuning.

The bottom line beneath that bottom line is that TMU is a bogus theory, junk science without the science part. The idea that black holes lead to the birth of other universes ‘somewhere else’ makes excellent science fiction but has nothing to do with reality. I cannot help but agree with Paul Davies when he says that belief in TMU, which flies completely opposite to everything that scientific materialists claim to uphold, is a sign that atheists are getting desperate, and are flailing around for anything that will rescue them from the conclusion that the universe was designed by an intelligent being.

But before I shut the book on that issue, I’ll give the teeming millions a chance to change my mind. Anyone care to comment? Diogenes the Cynic, you’ve asserted that all of Dawkins’ science is “untouchable”. Would you care to justify this part of it?

Who said they did?

Weeeeellll, it’s a bit more like “we’re fine tuned to fit in this universe.” Whether you are a creationist or Richard Dawkins, you still believe the universe came first.

Yeah, i’d tend to agree with the idea that we are fine-tuned in order to exist. The universe’s physicality means that we can exist; in a different physicality, we might not. But that does not mean there could be nothing in existence, nor indeed intelligent life; it just wouldn’t be like us in form and composition.

I’d point out also that your common sense argument is faulty. If complexity and exactitude imply via common sense the existence of a designer, then logically that desginer, being complex and exact, implies a designer in turn. If one is to posit an ultimate designer, one not created, then logically this would be an argument exactly against your notion of common sense. Note that this doesn’t mean incorrect; it merely shows that common sense is not something to base an argument off of. And indeed i’d disagree that that is the common sense answer. And indeed you beg the question, by saying that the designer is an intelligent being; why could not the designer be a “stupid” machine? A collective of beings with different ideas? A vast multitude of minor, mostly powerless reactions which nevertheless build up a considerable whole? I think that by jumping to conclusions like that you rather betray a sense of having the conclusion and then looking for justifications.

I thought the idea of TMU was to refute the necessity of a creator, not to refute the existence of a creator. The necessity of a creator is refuted by the possibility of many universes; for this purpose, there’s no need to demonstrate the actuality of many universes.

Also, to go on a slight tangent, if you belive the universe must have had a creator, what’s you basis for not believing that the creator must have had a creator? The ability to create itself is not necessary to the ability to create the universe (so a creator of the universe is not necessarily self-creating).

This is a bit like me asking you to pull out 10 random cards from a deck and having you feint at the result, no matter how mundane, simply because no matter what cards you get, the particular odds that you would draw those cards, in that order are vanishingly small.

You are assuming that the universe was fine tuned for life, instead of life being a by product of a universe that happened to be capable of supporting it. The many universe theory only disputes the necessity of a creator.

You are arguing in favor of the existence of God, right?

  1. The idea of multiple universes originally arose as a way to eliminate the pesky observer in quantum mechanics; it does away with the collapse of the wave function. So it’s kind of odd that things like the double-slit experimentweren’t mentioned as evidence of multiple universes.

  2. How lucky were are to live in a universe with a creator who possessed both the power and motivation to bring about our existence! There are infinitely many possible creators, but we wound up with exactly the right one. Clearly such a thing couldn’t have happened by chance – the creator must have had an intelligent designer!

My cat’s breath does not refute the deliciousness of cat food.

Yes, this is it. It’s like saying: Gee, it’s amazing that the salinity level in the ocean is just right for the life that lives in it. Well, actually, the life evolved in that environment, and needed to be able to exist with that salinity level.

Similarly, the odds of rolling any given number on a 100-sided dice are only 1%. That’s pretty bad odds. So, we can be quite confident that any time you see a 100-sided dice with only one side facing up, that it was placed there deliberately with the intent that that side be facing up.

An idea that is too small, both in cosmological terms and in a deep time frame.

All the evidence found shows that our existence is limited to an insignificant area in the universe and we only showed up in a very small time frame.

If there is a god like the bible mentions; we are, based on all evidence, an afterthought. Under those conditions one can only be a Deist if one wants to keep the god hypothesis in play.

Must be reading the wrong sources, I do not see any desperation. As Douglas Adams mentioned in his water puddle analogy, we are like a self aware small water puddle telling ourselves that the depression under the puddle was made for it, and even when the puddle evaporates under the sun, it thinks that everything will be all right since it was designed with a purpose, of course the puddle eventually dries and whatever problems of god being the designer or not of it disappears with it… taking care of the problem. :slight_smile:

In the meantime, it has to be noticed that in the very short historical and prehistorical human records available, multiple religions have appeared, so multiple universes remain a problem for the religious. If all were Deistic in nature I would continue to give them some thought, as it is, many religions like the ID proponents are insisting that god is continuously intervening, they are not realizing that this idea is contradictory to the idea that the universe was designed for life from the beginning (if we accept for a moment the presence of an intelligent designer).

For if the universe was set for life a very good designer would not need to intervene later, a later intervention implies a bad designer or one that is not very capable. That makes no sense to me, only a deistic god would be possible here. A god that did set everything in motion with blind designers that eventually got some things right. And even if we accept this, I can not ignore the very likely possibility that we are not the end point of the creation, but only an afterthought of that god. Or, taking deep time into account, we have to consider also that we are only the medium where the real reason for the creation will come from. Unfortunately, by looking at other bits of evidence, even this deistic god is unlikely or it would not deserve any of our time to worship him/her/it.

John, I think the current version of the fine-tuning argument for God is that several universal constants seemed to be tuned to make for a universe that is capable of being one in which life possibly could come about. That if one of these constants were slightly different, it would make for a universe that could not possibly support any concept of life that we can imagine.

Now, ITR Champion, you misunderstand the TMU idea - as others have said, it doesn’t disprove God, it just takes the wind out of the sails of the fine-tuning argument. Look at it this way: if all of existence just came about on its own, creating many (infinite?) universes with all variations of those universal constants, then occasionally you would find one that could support life. And the creatures who came about in those universes would be amazed that the constants of their universe seem to be tuned to support life. Some may even be tempted to figure that it must have been designed that way intentionally, but they would be wrong.

You say that with such smug certainty! But you are failing to take into account the “Apprentice God Theory” which perfectly destroys your arrogant and heathenish claim: “Well, actually, the life evolved in that environment”. You are so wrong, Mr. DEVILutionist!

Read and learn:

There once were two Gods. There was the Master God, Lenny, who had been in the God Guild for trillions of years, and then there was his new apprentice, Carl, who had only joined the guild a few millenia ago.

Now Lenny, in the manner of any Master, of any trade, would occasionally let his apprentice, Carl, attempt a basic Creation or two in order that he may gain experience. Lenny himself had of course learned in this manner when he was an apprentice to his own Master, the Last Turtle God (who was in turn apprenticed to the Penultimate Turtle God, who himself was apprenticed to the Almost Penultimate Turtle God, and so on, etc. etc. etc., all the way down).

But that’s beside the point.

One day, while Lenny was busy puttering around, trying to think of a good way to trick his newest creations into sinning so he could have a good excuse for eternally torturing them, Carl got a little carried away in the absence of his Master’s full attention.

Sitting in a corner masturbating to a photo-spread of Athena in order to generate the seed-stock for his newest creation attempts, Carl bursts a nut. From the resulting splooge he fashions all the sea creatures of Earth (just for giggles). They were created in the same form as we now know them, water-breathing, needing a certain amount of salinity in the water, etc.

The only problem was that Lenny hadn’t gotten around to creating the Ocean yet! Ooops! Carl had fucked up big-time! All over the dry land of the waterless Earth countless numbers of every specie of sea-creature was desperately flipping around, flailing, and gasping for water! Carl didn’t know what to do!

Fortunately for you, me, and Charlie the Tuna, Lenny finally checked in on his pupil. Giving out a great scream of rage and boxing young Carl about the ears, Master Lenny jerked-off with God-like intensity and speed. Then, with great spunk, he created all of the world’s oceans, complete with the perfect temperature, salinity and other conditions that would allow poor Carl’s creations to survive.

I’m surprised you didn’t know this as the Truth. I hope that you have learned not to primitively and superstitiously cling to science, reason and logic as means of explaining anything at all about Carl and Lenny’s Universe.

IGNORANCE SUCCESSFULLY FOUGHT!!!

Intelligence cannot exist unless a universe exhibits certain fine-tuned physical constants to support it.

Yet there is no evidence for any universe other than this one.

Therefore, the universe cannot have an intelligent creator, because intelligence cannot exist unless a universe exhibits certain fine-tuned physical constants to support it.

One good piece of evidence for the many-worlds interpretation, as David Deutsch has pointed out, is that it perfectly fits the apparent probabilistic structure of Quantum Mechanics – i.e. that what used to be a non-trivial problem, the apparently non-deterministic collapse of the wave function, turns out to happen quite naturally if there are parallel universes.

Also, there are no ‘mother universes’ or anything like that in any many-worlds formulation I am aware of, nor do I see any compelling reason for postulating such (other than perhaps straw man building).
There’s no need for a fine-tuning of the multiverse if all possible ‘tunings’ exist equivalently; and even if there were, as others have pointed out, that’d still beg the question of God’s fine-tuning.

Yet, the point made in the headline is correct – multiple universes don’t refute intelligent design; they merely show it to be unnecessary. But, more importantly, a single universe doesn’t imply a creator, either.

Considering the same scenario, on a rather different scale for a moment…

The Earth is the only place in our solar system (as far as we can be sure right now) that is suitable for life to exist. You’ll note that in all those other places in our solar system, where it is not possible for life to exist, there are no people standing there bitterly complaining about how unsuitable are the local conditions for their existence.

It is only possible to make the observation that the universe is suitable for our existence in a universe where those conditions already exist. Other universes may or may not exist where it may or may not be possible to make a similar observation, but it doesn’t really matter - we don’t have that information - the only information we have is that the universe in which we exist is suitable for us to be here - and that single data point cannot really be coerced to lead to your preferred conclusion without an unreasonable leap of logic.

And let’s not forget that if a creator does exist, we must live with the fact that he/she/it is a total fuck up.

Bottom line:

If you believe in a creator be afraid.

True.

If infinite probabilities produce infinite universes than some of those universes would indeed conclusively refute intelligent design.