**
Well, The Pope, for one. Who does he think he’s speaking for? Like you said, nothing personal. My girlfriend is Catholic. Really.
**
**
Like I said earlier, its not really any kind of choice if your forgiveness is conditional. Its a divine street mugging, believe in me… or else!
So by all looks of it, this arguement will never end. So I propose an experiment to see who is right, something to provce indefinitely in who is wrong and who is right:
Wait til one disbeliever and one believer die, wait a week, then bring them back to life. Who ever gives the smug smile after that is the winner.
Until then, I honestly cannot view any arguements of God soundly until I have definite proof. Though this thread does show my point a little better.
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv
I posted that link up above. Nice try though.
**
I believe that the Pope is speaking about the Catholic interpretation of the Bible. Why his ideas are any different than any other interpretation (say, Protestant views) escapes me…
Whether your girlfriend is Catholic or not is kind of irrelevent. The tone of your response tells me that you have some set ideas in your head and that you refuse to change them, which does not help people fight ignorance.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Satan *
**
I was just poking fun at people who, when accused of being homophobes, exclaim “some of my best friends are gay!”
I’m not sure what part of my response would make you think I am close minded about anything, but I can assure you that is not the case.
He thinks he is speaking for Jesus. The Pope is regarded by Catholics as Jesus’s vicar on earth, heir to the authority of the apostles.
I’m not Catholic anymore, and I wouldn’t be one even were I to return to Christianity. But aside from their teaching on oaths, their understanding of Jesus’s commandments seems superior to almost all Protestant denominations I am aware of.
YMMV
And yet, here you are choosing not to believe (at least this is the impression I’m getting), so I guess there IS a choice involved.
Just out of curiosity, do you believe that our legal system is a form of institional mugging? After all, if you don’t do what the government says there are penalties.
Is it a mugging when a referee enforces the rules of the game? In essence, the whole thing is a combination of a gamble and a game. You have a choice to believe or not to believe, to follow the rules or not to follow the rules, if you choose not to believe, then you gambled and lost by not playing by the rules.
Does this contradict the idea of an all-loving God, IMHO? Not at all, after all, it’s not like he didn’t give everyone the chance. And if you never hear the word of God and you don’t believe, then it isn’t a sin. This is because sin has three requirements: 1) it has to be wrong, 2) you have to do it on purpose, 3) you have to KNOW that the act is wrong. Obviously, if you never hear the Word of God, then you can’t know that not believing in God is wrong, so it doesn’t count against you.
Of course, like all discussions of religion, YMMV
**
You have a point here, as I can’t see anyone who seriously believes Jesus is the savior deciding not to be on his side.
If the the situation were as tangible as the example below, then there would be no choice.
**
It can be, but that’s another topic. As I said above, in these examples, you can be damn sure that if you don’t follow *very clear and concise *rules, then you will have to pay the consequences. When it comes to religion? Well, there’s rules, but there’s other rules too, and there’s different referees, or maybe none. If, according to you, I’m hedging my bets anyway, I prefer to bet that there is one good and just referee, who knows I want to play by the rules, as soon as I find out what they really are.
**
Depends on your idea of love. If love means throwing you into a pit of fire with the screaming and the burning and the gnashing of teeth just because they don’t interpret their world the way you want them to, then I guess it doesn’t.
**
Who’s turning Christianity into a set of legal rules now? 
I agree with you on this one. Listen up all a’ youse! Your Mileage Will Definitely Vary if you repeat what Neurotik said here. Just backing you up there.
I can’t speak for everyone, but for myself, I can say I wasn’t given a chance. A chance to make a decision based on evidence. That’s the only way we know things. Not because you say, or these other people say, or because the Bible says (it’s true, because it says it’s true), but by verifying claims with what we see in the real world. yes, Carl Sagan’s Demon-Haunted World is one of my favorites, if you couldn’t tell. By your own criteria, I don’t KNOW that the “act” of disbelief is wrong (if lack of belief can be called an “act”), therefore it is not a sin? I didn’t think this was ever going to relate back to the OP again, but looks like it did.
Please let me know if I’m not communicating this well. I will try to elaborate if need be.
Why can’t you distinguish right from wrong, while others can? Are you saying you were made defective? Or perhaps you have merely been slothful in determining right from wrong? Making this determination and deciding to do right is difficult, but don’t claim there is no evidence one way or the other regarding which is which.
Absolutely right. And that is why, (one more time) if you chose to do what is right, which is keeping Jesus’s teachings, then you would come to know that God exists, per what Jesus said. You wouldn’t in essence have a disbelief, because your belief would be shown by what you do.
This is bullshit, and you know it. “Right” does not equal “Christian”, “Wrong” does not equal “non-christian”, nor does “wrong” equal “christian” or “right” equal “non-christian”. Morality and religion aren’t necessarily connected, and certainly not as tightly as you seem to believe. To quote someone in another thread, by this logic Ghandi’s Christian oppressor’s were more moral than he was.
Can I get a “Whoa Bundy” here?
Ok, so let me get this straight: So the right thing to do is believe the teachings of God by what Jesus told us to. So would I be right if I decided to follow the teachings that involve morality, thinking that they are just really good advice on how to be good, without really caring if they came from God or some guy who could have been skitzo and heard voices and just take it as good advice? In no way does his teachings show me that he exists other than “Thou shalt believe in me”
How about this, I go to a church and tell them that the great being known as Draco, the great dragon among dragons, taught me his teachings on the best uses of fire and how to make a killer oven, and then preceded to tell everyone his teachings, would they believe me since his teachings would show that he existed? I sincerely doubt they would believe me. But what if I manage to convince a thousand people that it does exist? Wouldn’t that just prompt more people to believe since your neighbor believes? Is that not the way most religions start? Or was it just that Jesus was a charming SOB who got everyone to believe him?
Well, you can say that until you are blue in the face emphatically as you wish. But, perhaps you would like to cite an actual example from among Jesus’s commandments which you feel is wrong, just for argument’s sake? (start a new thread if you like).
Lest we repeat our earlier misunderstanding, are you referring to the Commandments (as in ten commandments) or commandments (as in things good Christians should do, or usually, not do)?
I mean Jesus’s commandments, generally (but not always) the imperative sentences Jesus spoke to his followers.
soujourn – I’ll repond, eventually, I promise!
OK, wait – I repent. I don’t promise. But, see, I managed to get to it anyway. 
You could see them as advice for doing what is right.
Ah, but if Jesus’s promises are true, by virtue of obeying his teachings, you would know that God exists.
Would his teachings show that he existed? In some definite, yet perhaps subjective, way? Tell me more! 
Yeah, well, people don’t believe a lot of things that are true. But if you gave them definite guidelines they could go by in order to get a definite results, and they refused to bother testing this for themself, that is their fault if they die in ignorance.
There is a sucker born every minute. It is almost impossible for these things to die once they reach a certain critical mass. But you can say the same thing about other beliefs people can test and show to be true as well – so just because a mass of people believe something doesn’t mean it is false either.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by jmullaney *
**OK, wait – I repent. I don’t promise. But, see, I managed to get to it anyway.
Ah, but if Jesus’s promises are true, by virtue of obeying his teachings, you would know that God exists.
If that is the case then every other god through every other religion would be true to since their promises would be true also. Maybe not to you, but to those who follow that religion they would be real since they would be obeying their teachings.
So then how else could you test the existence of God or any other religions gods other than dying? I know faith and belief would be an answer to just about anyone, but just because I believe in unicorns and dragons and that the moon is made of cheese does not mean that it is just because I believe or have faith in it.
Well, the answer you don’t want is the right answer, but only half of the right answer. We are spiritual beings, and as such, we can detect spiritual realities. But the mundane half of the answer is: Jesus makes extraordinary demands in the Gospels, but he also makes extraordinary guarantees. If he fulfills his guarantees to those who meet his demands, that is the other half of the proof.
I would also like to add that I think this is a very clever ploy, grasshopper. I think you are playing devil’s advocate here, and I can appreciate that, even if it is a bit dishonest. And for the sake of argument, if I tell you that sojourn’s dragon god told me that 2+2=4, and you start out as a little baby and get bigger and bigger until you’re an adult, and that a round thing we live on called “Earth” revolves in “space” around “the sun”, and this is because of “gravity”… all that sounds right. He surely must exist. Perhaps you would like to point out which of Draco’s commandments are wrong.
**
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by muppetsoup *
I am sorry. My lord Draco has forbid me to speak such to heretics.
I was inviting jmullaney to point out the flaws in Draco’s commmandments, and therefore prove he doesn’t exist. You have the gift of faith already, that much is clear.
