I’m teaching myself music theory while learning the guitar and I was hoping someone would be able to help me understand this issue.
The song is “Collide” by Kid Rock and the chords (according to a transcription I found online) are:
A-D-A-D
Bm-F#m-D-Bm
D-A-E-Bm
D-G-D-A
So I figure that this song is in the key of A major (right?) and I want to rewrite the chord pattern in number style to understand the structure and I get:
I-IV-I-IV
ii-vi-IV-ii
IV-I-V-ii
IV-??-IV-I
So the key of A major has a G# (dim), but not a G major. So what is G major in relation to the key? It’s some kind of seventh, right? Maybe a flat-7th-something?
Though oddly, in guitar chord notation, an A with a G note added to it would simply be called an A7. Whereas an A with a G# added to it would be known as an Amaj7.
I’ve never quite figured out why the terminology differs. Guitar notation doesn’t really speak of flatted 7ths…just 7ths or major 7ths.
A7 is shorthand for A dominant seventh, right? It seems to me on my limited experience that dominant 7th chords are more common than major 7ths and minor 7ths in pop music. Perhaps dominant 7ths got the shorter shorthand just because of that?
You’re conflating two different languages; one to describe the relationship between chords within a key, and the other to describe chords.
All dominant 7 chords (major chords with a minor 7th interval added) are typically called “7” chords. If it’s a major 7th interval (A major chord with a G#, for example), we call it a “major 7” chord. My guess is because in most styles of music, dominant 7 chords are much more common, and so the “default” “7” chord is the seven with the minor 7th.
When describing chords using numerals, the base is about the scale degree. In the key of A, G major is based on the flatted 7th note of the A scale, so, it is a bVII.
tldr; the “7” in an A7 chord refers to the added interval beyond the triad and by convention refers to a minor 7 interval. The VII in roman numeral analysis refers to the scale tone that is the root of the chord. Any deviation from the diatonic scale needs to be described explicitly (thus making G, in the key of A, a bVII chord, for the purposes of roman numeral analysis).
An A7 (or A dominant 7) chord contains a b7 note (relative to A), G - this chord is diatonic to D major (the V7 chord), built in thirds from the dominant (5th) degree of the D major scale, using the notes from that scale - A C E G.
An Amaj7 chord contains a 7 note (relative to A), G# - this chord is diatonic to A major (the IMaj7 chord), built in thirds from the first degree of the A major scale, using the notes from that scale - A C E G#.
First off, the IV/IV is apparently not in traditional chord analysis. I discussed it with the head of the Music Theory department at college. So this isn’t set in stone. But I do have my own ideas about it.
The bVII chord can be a IV/IV chord, but it will usually lead to the IV. just like the V/V usually leads back to the V(7) (or vii[sup]o[/sup], which is really just the V7 without the 5).
But there’s another way the chord can be analyzed that is quite common: as borrowing from the minor. Nearly every time I saw the bVII chord in classical music, it was this.
I’ve also encountered it as a sort of substitution for the ii chord. You just raise the fifth. And, like any other ii chord, it leads to a dominant. The song I first saw this in is actually a Christian worship song. I’ll link you to the American Idol version.
The chord progression of the verses is A | E | F#m E | D | A/C# D | A/E F#m | G | Esus E. Those last three measures are I [sup]6[/sup][sub]4[/sub] vii bVII V[sup]sus4[/sup] V. If you treat G as a substitute for the ii (Bm), it becomes a traditional 1-6-2-5, a half cadence preceded by the circle of fifths–naturally leading into the I (A major) for the chorus.
The short answer: “seventh” (as in adding a fourth note to a triad) is different than “seven” (as in a chord whose root is a certain distance away from the tonic).
In either case, there are two possibilities: use the tenth semi-tone on the scale, or use the eleventh semi-tone.
For historical reasons, when talking about “sevenths,” we often consider the tenth semitone to be “standard” (say, B flat for the key of C, to make a bluesy C7 chord), and so have to use a special name to refer to the eleventh semitone (“major seventh”).
Also for historical reasons, when talking about “sevens,” we do the opposite: this time, it’s the eleventh semitone that’s usually “standard.” So, again for example in C, it’s a B chord that’s a plain “seven,” while the B-flat chord gets the special name - “flat(ted) seven” – as pulykamell pointed out, the second chord of the “Hey Jude” coda plus a thousand other songs.
Arghh! In my previous post, please replace “tenth semitone” with “eleventh…,” and “eleventh semitone” with “twelfth…”.
That is, what most people call just a plain C7 (seventh) chord has the eleventh semitone added – B flat – while what most people call just a plain VII (seven) chord in the key of C is the one rooted in the twelfth semitone – B natural.
One more small correction to my first post: Only in the case of “sevenths” is the fact that one of the options is unmarked due merely to historical reasons. The minor seventh chord (that is, “add an eleventh semitone”) is just more common (not only in blues) than the major one, so we usually just call it the “seventh.”
With “seven” (VII), the reason we instead privilege the twelfth semitone is more inherently logical, not just because of some historical development. Obviously, it’s because it’s the seventh tone in a major scale. (Although, again, it turns out that the flat(ted) seven turns up a lot more, especially in post-Hey-Jude-Sympathy-for-the-Devil popular music).
Well, it’s the seventh tone in a scale, so a VII chord in C major would be B major (and would be an out-of-scale chord, so really a vii half-diminished is what you might usually see) but a VII chord in C minor would be Bb minor. So how many semitones away the seven is depends on whether you’re in a major or minor key.
[QUOTE=pulykamell]
so really a vii half-diminished is what you might usually see
[/quote]
Whoops, this should be vii diminished triad or vii half-diminished 7th.
Ah, shit, that’s what I get for posting first thing out of bed. Of course I meant “VII chord in C minor would be Bb (major).” OK, time to get some coffee.
Right, pulykamell, thanks for pointing out those details (and enjoy your coffee!).
But my basic point still stands that, if you’re in C and someone says “seventh,” your first thought is “add a B flat,” but if someone says “seven,” you first thought is “do something rooted on B natural.”
If I’m in C major, yes. If I’m in C minor, then the understanding of the term “seventh” stays the same, but “seven” is Bb. I don’t think it’s a minor difference, and I particularly point it out because I mention a i-III-VII-VI progression above, and if this difference isn’t understood, there may be some confusion as to what the III, VII, and VI are.