[QUOTE=Harriet the Spry]
I have been to Minnesota, and I know the weather is bad. But your alternative is not to freeze to death, it is to travel without the wine. Or, most likely, put the wine in your luggage. Surely the cabbies aren’t running their own security checkpoint?
[/QUOTE]
But what about the guide dog?
[QUOTE=Wile E]
But what about the guide dog?
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Does the guide dog have any alcohol on him? 
As far as I know the guide dog would be required to be allowed in the cab, under the Americans with Disabilities Act. If you are traveling to and from the airport with a pet dog, you probably should plan your ground transportation in advance.
Dan Blather, it’s not just undue hardship that makes a case, but undue hardship based on a characteristic that is legally protected. The choice to transport wine is just a choice. It’s not like race, or sex, or disability. But if airport transportation there in MN has become dysfunctional, you can try local regulation. If all of your cabbies are Somali immigrants, though, I’m guessing you are in a situation similar to North Carolina, where you don’t need to be driving cabbies out of the market.
A rescue St. Bernard with the little barrel of whiskey would be a tough call.
[QUOTE=kung fu lola]
Look, I know that just because something is ancient doesn’t automatically lend it credibility. I struggle with the concept of Divine Revelation myself. But it’s insulting and facile to just dismiss scripture and consign all people who believe in it to idiocy. It’s beneath an intelligent atheist to use such spurious logic.
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I wasn’t doing that. I know of several people who joined the Seventh Day Adventist Church because they could get out of working on Saturdays (and thus be able to spend more time partying) since the Adventists hold that day to be the Sabbath and are forbidden from working on that day. (Of course, I’ve known several people who were born and raised Seventh Day Adventists who had no problem working on Saturdays.) With any religion/philosophy people can twist it to suit their needs/desires. Were that not the case, we wouldn’t have had quite so many wars in our history (since all religions pretty much hold we shouldn’t go out and kill people).
This is ridiculous. If I may give my own example?
Until very recently, I was involved with the accounting side for Army trainees and similar personnel. The vast majority of them were slated to be deployed in Iraq at some point, and in fact many of them went straight there after their training was completed.
Now, I’ve been against that horrific and unbelievably wasteful war from the very beginning, and it was quite plain from the time I began that job that our fine troops were in a hopeless, bloody quagmire. There’s no way in hell I’d voluntarily lend my support to any aspect of it.
But I helped the trainees. With incorrect entries, with obligations that someone else forgot to put in, with forms that needed to go through, and occasionally with direct advice. Why? Because I didn’t get to pick and choose which tasks I wanted to do. Once I stepped into the building and took the oath (well, after several weeks of security, administrative, and procedural stuff, but never mind), my personal feelings about the Army and the current Iraq conflict ceased to matter. If I didn’t want to facilitate armed soldiers who’d be sent to a foreign land to kill, I could’ve very simply not taken the job.
This just digusts me. You don’t get to refuse a task just because you don’t want to do it. And I’m not buying the religion argument. Accomodating religion means maintaining a nondiscriminatory workplace, permitting inconspicuous holy symbols, reasonable measures like that. It does not excuse basic incompetence.
I see no grounds for accomodating unreasonable needs. There are many, many people who’d be more than happy to just make a living.
At any rate, as far as this case is concerned, I see three possible appropriate courses of action: Severe reprimand and a warning, suspension, or termination. And as someone who’s been fired for far less, I can tell you that the third option is not unreasonable.
How many potentially untouchable pork products are there? Could the cashier keep a written sheet with barcodes or UPC numbers of pork products on it, and just type them in (similar to how a cashier looks up the code to punch in for obscure vegetables)? Certainly a customer wouldn’t mind picking up the bacon and moving it three feet to the bag.
[QUOTE=iwakura43]
Certainly a customer wouldn’t mind picking up the bacon and moving it three feet to the bag.
[/QUOTE]
I would, because of the principle of the thing. I come in with money and a cartful of food, it’s the cashier’s job to ring it up and get it bagged properly. If I wanted to bag my own food, I’d go to Sam’s.
Is it possible the cashier is interpreting the Koran too literally? She’s not actually touching the pork, but a piece of plastic. A while back I remember reading about a Muslim family living in Australia that ordered pizza to be delivered. It wasn’t until after they ate the pizza that they realized it had sausage on it. They demanded an all-expenses paid trip to Mecca for “purification.”
IIRC, the local imans laughed at them, and told them they were fine.
[QUOTE=ivylass]
I would, because of the principle of the thing. I come in with money and a cartful of food, it’s the cashier’s job to ring it up and get it bagged properly. If I wanted to bag my own food, I’d go to Sam’s.
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It may be because doing your own bagging is the norm here, but this seems kinda petty. Sure, it’s good sometimes to do things solely for the principle of the thing, but when that principle is “I shouldn’t have to do my own bagging” I think it’s pretty safe to let it go. Especially if it’s just one item you’d have to stick in a bag yourself.
As I said, it’s the principle. In most grocery stores here, there are baggers who will bag your food for you. That’s what they get paid for. Sometimes they will even push your cart out to your car and help you load your groceries into the trunk of your car, which if you are elderly or disabled, can be a big help. Being asked to do something even though it is the cashiers/baggers job is a bit :dubious: .
Basically, the cashier is imposing her religious beliefs on the customer.
[QUOTE=Harriet the Spry]
With respect to religious beliefs, though, there is such a law, and it’s pretty well entrenched. It keeps Christians from having to work on Sundays, Jews from having to work on their holy days, etc. It’s part of the same law that protects people from race and sex discrimination. Also, this is the same law that prevents a religious business owner from refusing to hire atheists. Obviously you don’t have to like all the laws in the country, and I sure don’t, but much of this thread is coming across like this is wide open for discussion, when it’s really pretty well settled. The odds of changing this law don’t look good, if Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists all rely on its protections.
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You are right about this, but despite the entrenchment, it’s not a law I agree with. Although I can understand a law that does not allow an employer to fire someone just because of their religion, I see a fundamental difference between that and firing someone because they won’t execute their job duties…even if the reason they won’t is a religious one.
I actually don’t think I was the one who asked about distinguishing random belief from protected beliefs, but since you mention it, this a major reason I believe what I stated above…it’s too subjective, and therefore someone who is of a lesser-known religion could easily be discriminated against in the application of the law…not to mention someone who might have a moral objection to something, but not on a religious basis.
Like someone posted above, how far does it go? Can a Muslim cashier refuse to ring up a can of Spam? Can a Jewish cashier refuse to ring up an order that includes both a turkey and some Swiss cheese? Can the Muslim refuse to ring up an order for a woman wearing shorts and a T-shirt? Or an orthodox Jewish man refuse to hand a shopping bag to a woman?
The mind boggles
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
Like someone posted above, how far does it go? Can a Muslim cashier refuse to ring up a can of Spam? Can a Jewish cashier refuse to ring up an order that includes both a turkey and some Swiss cheese? Can the Muslim refuse to ring up an order for a woman wearing shorts and a T-shirt? Or an orthodox Jewish man refuse to hand a shopping bag to a woman?
The mind boggles
[/QUOTE]
Or an Atheist refuse to ring up a bible? Or, for that matter, a Muslim refuse to sell matzo because he think it contains the blood of Muslim children. Religious discrimination laws may prevent some of these, but how about if a Muslim cashier refuses to sell a bible to an Athiest who is buying it for a class in comparative religion? Do we force the cashier to sell to someone buying it for religious purposes but allow them to refuse selling it to someone buying it for secular reasons? The mind reels.
A Christian refusng to ring up a book on the history of witchcraft? Or a set of Tarot cards or a Ouija board?
A Wiccan refusing to ring up a Bible or a Torah?
A member of PETA refusing to ring up a jar of honey?
What a fun new game!!!
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas]
A Christian refusng to ring up a book on the history of witchcraft? Or a set of Tarot cards or a Ouija board?
A Wiccan refusing to ring up a Bible or a Torah?
A member of PETA refusing to ring up a jar of honey?
What a fun new game!!!
[/QUOTE]
Me refusing to ring up a can of Solyent Green (I’d probably have to call over a member of PETA to do it).
Can someone confirm Muslims are not only not allowed to handle pork, they can’t even handle pork when it’s vaccuum sealed and shrink-wrapped?
Can the cashier even be in the same store with pork products? Surely there’s a sane cutoff point somewhere? No one is asking a Muslim to eat pork, merely to wave a package over a scanner.
Or a Breatharian refusing to ring up anything.
The mind feebles!
If the cashier follows the Atkins diet religiously, do they have to ring up bread & pasta?
[QUOTE=T_SQUARE]
I used to live by a gas station where the night shift guy was a Christian fundie. He refused to sell me Maxim magazine. The other people in line probably thought I was trying to buy Barely Legal.
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I’d have put the money on the counter and walked out with it.
[QUOTE=ivylass]
Can someone confirm Muslims are not only not allowed to handle pork, they can’t even handle pork when it’s vaccuum sealed and shrink-wrapped?
Can the cashier even be in the same store with pork products? Surely there’s a sane cutoff point somewhere? No one is asking a Muslim to eat pork, merely to wave a package over a scanner.
[/QUOTE]
I think you’re absolutely right here, that it’s a fairly extremist interpretation on the clerk’s part.
From the Fatwa Bank on Islamonline, “Handling vacuum-wrapped pork is allowed because the impurity is contained inside the wrapping.”
Looking at similar questions about working where pork products are sold – and the question comes up all the time – the consensus seems to be that you should try to get another job, but not that you should quit immediately if you need to support yourself. In other words, a vague necessity clause can be always be invoked. And if I can editorialize, it seems like for all the rigidity that people impute to Islam, there’s a lot of looking the other way about this sort of thing, even by people who are fairly strict constructionists. Google “Fatwa Corner” – there are a number of them – and browse away. It’s entertaining reading, if nothing else.
[QUOTE=Sal Ammoniac]
I think you’re absolutely right here, that it’s a fairly extremist interpretation on the clerk’s part.
From the Fatwa Bank on Islamonline, “Handling vacuum-wrapped pork is allowed because the impurity is contained inside the wrapping.”
Looking at similar questions about working where pork products are sold – and the question comes up all the time – the consensus seems to be that you should try to get another job, but not that you should quit immediately if you need to support yourself. In other words, a vague necessity clause can be always be invoked. And if I can editorialize, it seems like for all the rigidity that people impute to Islam, there’s a lot of looking the other way about this sort of thing, even by people who are fairly strict constructionists. Google “Fatwa Corner” – there are a number of them – and browse away. It’s entertaining reading, if nothing else.
[/QUOTE]
Most Muslims I’ve met here in Houston are highly educated & speak English well. Many are scientists and/or physicians. Others are entrepreneurs–you can earn a bunch of money by working long hours in your own convenience store. (If you don’t get shot.) While they consider themselves good Muslims, The Old Country’s conservatism may have played a part in their decision to come to the USA.
Minnesota’s Somalis mostly began as refugees who fled their homes to escape warlords & famine. Some probably wish they could have stayed home–but had little choice. Many lack the education & language skills needed for good jobs. And they lack the “nest egg” to start a business. It appears that many of these Somalis probably are more conservative than the average Muslim immigrant.
Sounds as though Target is dealing with the situation. Workers will be given jobs where their beliefs won’t make waves.
Minnesotan generosity towards Somalis led to the large community. But–could it be that some Minnesotans don’t care for these newcomers? After all–they aren’t just Muslims. They’re Africans!
(Last Christmas, the Pakistanis who run the neighborhood liquor store enjoyed ringing up sale after sale. And they wished everybody “Merry Christmas.” )