There’s been a lot of debate about Sultaana Freeman, the Muslim convert who wants to have her Florida driver’s license taken with a full veil covering her face, showing only her eyes.
Now, one thing I just noticed in photgraphs is that she is clearly wearing eye makeup. What do Islam and Muslim custom say about makeup? If makeup is frowned up or forbidden, I do not see why Freeman should be allowed to pick and choose what religious strictures she “has” to follow.
(I noticed the makeup during a closeup on TV. I wish I could find a better picture to link to, but the link above has some pictures in which it shows up. She is wearing eye liner.)
Islam, has no problem with makeup. Many women who wear hijab wear makeup, sometimes less than the western norm, sometimes more (and of course, not all muslim women wear hijab).
If your only visible features were your face or eyes, you’d want them to look nice too.
Actually, in Iran, rhinoplasty is widely practised, and surgeons there are particularly skilled in it.
Wow, this is interesting. I, too, thought that Muslim women who wore the veils didn’t wear makeup either. This board is very good at dispelling myths and rumours.
I read an article in National Geographic that talked about how obsessed Iranian women were with their facial appearance. Plastic surgery on the face is extremely popular in Iran as is the sale of facial cosmetics. The idea is that if the face is all you have to show the world, then it better be as good as it can be. I was surprised by it too.
I was in Kuwait for a year, and I did see a lot of the more “well to do” Kuwaiti women wearing eye-makeup, rather garish, in my opinion. I also read a news article in MSN Arabia about women and makeup in Saudi Arabia. Apparently in RSA, a light makeup would be considered heavy makeup in France, where makeup is far from unknown.
The clerics were against such practices, of course.
Islam in general has no problem with moderate beautification, above all aimed at ‘home consumption’ – it like Judiasm has never shared Xianity’s troubled relationship with sexuality per se. In classical times quite frank and perhaps even ‘scientific’ sex manuals were known and sex for pure pleasure btw hubby and wife has always been a-ok (as I believe in most strains of Judiasm).
Some hyper-conservos are against all forms of adornment but they run strongly against both historical tradition and the avg Muhammed and Leila’s grain, even conservative ones.
Finally, let’s get some terms and ideas right.
Hijab, typically refers to covering one’s hair and/or shoulders. Not the face veil . Hijab comes in a large variety styles, from helmet head catholic nun type outfits to nothing more than a scarf over the hair. I frankly think Western obsession over this is vastly overdone.
Niqab, the face veil, again comes in a variety of forms (the Emirates have this sexy masque thing, burqa they call it, not to be confused w/ the Afghan full body and face thing) and to be frank is pretty rare outside of the Gulf. You can usually guess who’s Wahhabite by this.
First lesson: don’t assume the sets of cultural standards w/ certain baggage are the same as in your own.
Second, don’t assume w/o checking.
(Finally let me emphasize that the word clerics is fairly misplaced - religious scholars / preachers would be better)
Actually, in conservative Muslim cultures, eye makeup in particular does seem to be OK.
Interestingly, in a lot of the more Westernized Muslim countries, hijab is coming back into vogue among educated and professional women, especially university students. Some are even going back to the chador and veil. By adopting the more conservative “traditional” dress, these generally very liberal-thinking women are making a statement to their male cohorts that they want to be valued for their intellects and abilities, not for their physical beauty.
After seeing one too many women wearing midriff-baring, ultra low-cut tops with the ultra-low-rise pants, thong panties and butt cheeks clearly visible when the bend over, I’m starting to think these Muslim ladies have the right idea…
Make up here: on TV, in the street, in adverts: whorish, and trowel thick. No bones about it, it’s vile.
Arabic sex manual (historico-literary, not porn).
Kiddies: don’t follow it, much of it is just bizarre. Eg a “dry vagina” is considered best for sex. Ouch. Yep.
Check out the Shakira-style tarts that flood Dubai (I know we’re an exception, but I’ll be there’s similar in Beirut) and you SO won’t say that
Seems to me that anything that is painful for women is considered ‘best’, including female ‘circumcision’ where all here female genitalia is removed with a rusty knife and then she’s sewn shut with just a tiny hole to pee out of. Since she’ s missing all her parts the scarring causes a female to take like 15 minutes to pee, and it’s painful!
That’s considered more ‘hygenic’, even though all first born children always die…to make room for the others…cause labors is usually 5 days long and the woman is missing the stretchy labia needed for stretching so the first kid can come through. Imagine the tearing when a kid finally does make it out!!
This practice is popular for muslims and some other groups. Men won’t marry women unless they are ‘hygenic’, and you bet that would lead to dryness!!
:dubious:
Seems to me that anything that is painful for women is considered ‘best’, including female ‘circumcision’ where all here female genitalia is removed with a rusty knife and then she’s sewn shut with just a tiny hole to pee out of. Since she’ s missing all her parts the scarring causes a female to take like 15 minutes to pee, and it’s painful!
That’s considered more ‘hygenic’, even though all first born children always die…to make room for the others…cause labors is usually 5 days long and the woman is missing the stretchy labia needed for stretching so the first kid can come through. Imagine the tearing when a kid finally does make it out!!
This practice is popular for muslims and some other groups. Men won’t marry women unless they are ‘hygenic’, and you bet that would lead to dryness!!
QUOTE]Eg a “dry vagina” is considered best for sex. Ouch. Yep
[/QUOTE]
:dubious:
Seems to me that anything that is painful for women is considered ‘best’, including female ‘circumcision’ where all here female genitalia is removed with a rusty knife and then she’s sewn shut with just a tiny hole to pee out of. Since she’ s missing all her parts the scarring causes a female to take like 15 minutes to pee, and it’s painful!
That’s considered more ‘hygenic’, even though all first born children always die…to make room for the others…cause labors is usually 5 days long and the woman is missing the stretchy labia needed for stretching so the first kid can come through. Imagine the tearing when a kid finally does make it out!!
This practice is popular for muslims and some other groups. Men won’t marry women unless they are ‘hygenic’, and you bet that would lead to dryness!!
Since our drabble person spammed two threads with disinformation:
Female circumcision - and here you describe the most extreme version practiced in the North East Horn of Africa, is not a Muslim practice at all. Of course it is notable that the cutting instrument used is invariably whatever is traditional to use for traditional surgeries, not something specifically chosen to kill and maim.
Again: Not a Muslim practice at all.
It appears to have originated in North East Africa, the Horn area, where the most extreme forms are found and to have spread into parts of the Nile Valley and later perhaps into parts of the Sahel, Western Africa. It’s practiced by both Muslim and non-Muslim ethnicities, although in West Africa it is associated most strongly with Islam – wrongly and ignorantly.
The practice is utterly unknown in the rest of the Muslim world, including, for example, North Africa.
Amazing the amount of half-informed ignorance that flouts around about the Islamic world, bloody hell does anyone ever bother to bloody read anything of substance?
I’m gonna have to disagree. “Midriff-baring, ultra low-cut tops with the ultra-low-rise pants, thong panties and butt cheeks clearly visible” should be encouraged.
I was just about to weigh in with a correction there myself Col, but you beat me to it.
Yes, female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam - it’s a cultural practice, not a religious one. Seems that Drabble has a pretty low opinion of the religion and will happily belive the worst.
Also, please note that this manual was first translated in 1850, and was probably written long before that. Many cultures had strange ideas about sex back then, so singling out Muslims for accusations of violent mysogyny is just plain wrong.
If Islamic culture is not so bad as everybody seems to think, why can’t some muslims tell Ms. Freeman she can bloody well take off her veil for her driver’s license photo?
Why can’t some Christians tell all those cranky Irish people to stop with the terrorism and bombs and stuff?
She’s not doing this so that she can listen to reason. She’s doing this to make a point. The point may be that she’s weird, but still. That’s her goal.
The “eyeliner” you are referring to is Kohl, something that Middle Eastern women have worn since the time of the Egyptians.
The question, I believe, is Ms. Freeman’s right to be guided by her religous beliefs vs. what the U.S. government requires to obtain a driver’s license.
The answer really has nothing to do with her religous beliefs and her rights to follow same. The answer is that driving in this country is a PRIVILEGE, not a right.
It was a muslim woman on a show that I saw cutting a muslim girl, before I ever hears of it done in Africa. Sure there are various extremes, but all in all it is done.
Yes, some muslim communities in Africa and middle east.
you gotta tell the people on that site they are wrong too then.
