Mutiny on the Bounty

[bonitas]

@APB

All of which ignores my point, which is that, in terms of eighteenth-century law, to ‘run away with any of His Majesty’s ships or vessels of war’ did amount to ‘mutiny’. So, yes, you are still talking bollocks.

From: bonitas
Check out the book "The Wooden World : Anatomy of the Georgian Navy" by N.A.M Roger, and then quote what he says about what is, or what is not, mutiny, and what ‘running away with Ship or Stores’ meant in the Articles of War.
If your readers don’t see any mention of it on this website, I’ll leave it to them to draw their own conclusions. Have a nice day.

[Anaamika]

Off topic, Mutiny on the Bounty is killing me. In a good way. It started out slow but picked up progressively to the point that I’m anxious to go home and read it and finish it. I have about 100 pages or so to go, and I am right at the exciting conclusion and I HAVE. TO. BE. AT. WORK!

I haven’t read all of the discussion on Bligh yet. I will not read it until after I finish the novel, which will probably be tonight.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@Damfino

…The Marines, having taken an oath, were considered more trustworthy than the sailors, who had not…

Really? Huh. Why not have the sailors swear an oath too? Given the mores of the day, as an officer I’d feel much more comfortable with, and confident in, a crew under oath than one that was not, all things being equal.

[panache45]

@ArchiveGuy

I find it incredibly unlike that he would have made it to adulthood and not been made aware of it at some point . . .

I once was introduced to a new coworker whose last name was Carmen Miranda. I asked him if he was related to the *famous *Carmen Miranda. He never heard of her. I then said, “You have the right to remain silent.” . . . met with a blank stare.

[Elendil_s_Heir]

@panache45

I once was introduced to a new coworker whose last name was Carmen Miranda. I asked him if he was related to the *famous *Carmen Miranda. He never heard of her. I then said, “You have the right to remain silent.” . . . met with a blank stare.

I hope you’re whooshing us. Those are two (three, counting your coworker) different Mirandas.

[Damfino]

@Elendil_s_Heir

Really? Huh. Why not have the sailors swear an oath too? Given the mores of the day, as an officer I’d feel much more comfortable with, and confident in, a crew under oath than one that was not, all things being equal.

Well, I picked that information up from C.S. Forester’s Hornblower series. I don’t know why sailors weren’t made to swear the oath either.

[carnivorousplant]

I thought the marines were loyal because their function was to keep the sailors in line. Seamen and Marines just naturally hated each other’s guts.

[usar_jag]

@panache45

I once was introduced to a new coworker whose last name was Carmen Miranda. I asked him if he was related to the *famous *Carmen Miranda. He never heard of her. I then said, “You have the right to remain silent.” . . . met with a blank stare.

In terms of one’s Miranda rights, the defendant in that US Supreme Court case was Ernesto Arturo Miranda.

[Icerigger]

@Anaamika

Off topic, Mutiny on the Bounty is killing me. In a good way. It started out slow but picked up progressively to the point that I’m anxious to go home and read it and finish it. I have about 100 pages or so to go, and I am right at the exciting conclusion and I HAVE. TO. BE. AT. WORK!

We expect a full book report, my favorite chapter is “10 Weary Months.”

Speaking of that.

Just a historical oddity in the Bounty struggle. I find it amazing the ship sent to look for the Bounty the Pandora was also lost and Capt. Edwards ended up in a boat just like Bligh. As well as ending up in court for losing his ship.

[carnivorousplant]

@Icerigger

As well as ending up in court for losing his ship.

Anyone who lost his ship had a court martial, whatever the circumstances.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Icerigger

We expect a full book report, my favorite chapter is “10 Weary Months.”

Speaking of that.

Just a historical oddity in the Bounty struggle. I find it amazing the ship sent to look for the Bounty the Pandora was also lost and Capt. Edwards ended up in a boat just like Bligh. As well as ending up in court for losing his ship.

Edwards was the real idiotic captain in the story, which I think muddies the waters of history quite a bit.

[carnivorousplant]

@Labrador_Deceiver

Edwards was the real idiotic captain in the story, which I think muddies the waters of history quite a bit.

I would imagine things happened all in the proper time, but it would be amusing if Peter Heywood, accused mutineer and occupant of “Pandora’s Box” had reached flag rank while Edward’s was still a Captain.

[Malthus]

@carnivorousplant

I would imagine things happened all in the proper time, but it would be amusing if Peter Heywood, accused mutineer and occupant of “Pandora’s Box” had reached flag rank while Edward’s was still a Captain.

I’m not sure if that was likely - I get the impression that promotion to flag rank worked by seniority, with the inefficient made admirals but not given anything to command (a process I read somewhere was called “yellowing”).

Thus, given that Edward was senior, he’d be made an admiral before Heywood if he lived that long and stayed in the service.

Though no doubt some expert on the navy will be along soon to correct me …

[Anaamika]

@Icerigger

We expect a full book report, my favorite chapter is “10 Weary Months.”

Well, I don’t know about a full book report, but I did indeed finish it up last night. I read the Freddy the Pig version referenced below - the entertainment one - and was indeed vastly entertained. I also plan to read the sequels; the copy I got from the library did not have all three.
Having watched Master and Commander several times actually helped a lot with the reading; I was able to picture the size and the area of the boat and day-to-day life on the boat pretty well. (Ship, whatever.)

@Freddy_the_Pig

The trick is to decide which book(s) to read. For entertainment, go with Nordhoff & Hall, but understand that it’s a novelization and not a work of history. It’s a trilogy: (1) Mutiny on the Bounty, which tells the story of the mutiny and ensuing trials; (2) Men Against the Sea, the story of Bligh’s voyage in an open boat; and (3) Pitcairn’s Island, the story of Christian and the mutineers and Polynesians who settled on Pitcairn. The three are often published as a single volume, The Bounty Trilogy.

All three are great fun to read, and Volume (3) may be the best of the lot. It necessary involves a fair amount of speculation, since nobody knows exactly what happened on Pitcairn, but by the same token this means the novelization approach works well. I haven’t seen the two later Bounty movies, so I don’t know if they deal with Pitcairn (the first one didn’t), but if not there’s a great movie waiting to be made about it.

For a drier but more balanced historical account, go with Caroline Alexander. If you want to go back to the original sources, read Bligh’s memoir, but I haven’t so I can’t speak to its readability or accuracy.

Ugh. Dry? Balanced? History? Sheesh, you’d think I was trying to learn something.
Hey - what is the meaning of your username? Why did you call yourself a pig? I have always wondered.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Malthus

I’m not sure if that was likely - I get the impression that promotion to flag rank worked by seniority, with the inefficient made admirals but not given anything to command (a process I read somewhere was called “yellowing”).

Thus, given that Edward was senior, he’d be made an admiral before Heywood if he lived that long and stayed in the service.

Though no doubt some expert on the navy will be along soon to correct me …

What you say about seniority is correct. It was actually impossible for someone to pass you by in the ranking system after you were both made Post.

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@Labrador_Deceiver

What you say about seniority is correct. It was actually impossible for someone to pass you by in the ranking system after you were both made Post.

After reading both my post and the one I responded to, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not an expert on the navy. Sorry to give that impression.

[carnivorousplant]

@Labrador_Deceiver

What you say about seniority is correct. It was actually impossible for someone to pass you by in the ranking system after you were both made Post.

That’s what I meant by “I would imagine things happened all in the proper time”, but I would think that you could screw up badly enough to not make flag rank. At the very least, according to the famous Naval Historian Patrick O’Brien, they could make you Rear Admiral of the Yellow Squadron, that is, not appointed to any command.

[Malthus]

@carnivorousplant

That’s what I meant by “I would imagine things happened all in the proper time”, but I would think that you could screw up badly enough to not make flag rank. At the very least, according to the famous Naval Historian Patrick O’Brien, they could make you Rear Admiral of the Yellow Squadron, that is, not appointed to any command.

That I don’t know (that is, whether you could screw up badly enough to be passed over for admiral, but not actually dismissed from the service).

I have heard about “yellowing”, though.

My impression is that if you screwed up (but not badly enough to be drummed out of the service), the punishment was to be ignored for appointments - you would not be assigned a ship, and be left to rot on half-pay. Particularly during peace-time, when there were far fewer ships at sea than captains.

This fate seems to have been a never-ending source of anxiety for captains of the period, if my casual reading of naval history is to be believed

[Labrador_Deceiver]

@carnivorousplant

That’s what I meant by “I would imagine things happened all in the proper time”, but I would think that you could screw up badly enough to not make flag rank. At the very least, according to the famous Naval Historian Patrick O’Brien, they could make you Rear Admiral of the Yellow Squadron, that is, not appointed to any command.

Sorry, I actually meant to address the fact that you said that in your initial response to me. :smack:

[Freddy_the_Pig]

@Anaamika

Hey - what is the meaning of your username? Why did you call yourself a pig? I have always wondered.

Freddy the Pig was the title character in a once-popular series of books by Walter R. Brooks, of which I was fond as a child. I look like him–especially the ears.