Back to eviscerating each other and eating our intestines while we yet live:
Here is Peter Heywood’s testimony at the trial, where he calls it a mutiny.
I have just read “The Yellow Admiral” and concur. Once you became a Post- Captain, promotion was assured by death and seniority. Admiral rank was granted in the White, Blue, and Red Squadrons, rear, vice, then full Admiral. (I might have got the order of colours wrong.) However, if you were in bad favour, you would be promoted admiral, but not assigned a squadron. Thus “yellowed”. There was no actual “Yellow Squadron” (per O’Brian).
“By the way, the Pitcairn Islanders and some of my friends there know and accept that the Bounty was originally not an HMS vessel, but HMAV Bounty. When will the outside world come to terms with this historic reality too?”
You are so correct!
Even the Pitcairn Islanders ‘themselves’ refer to this ship as HMAV Bounty, they have it printed on their ‘monument’.
Bounty Landing Dedication Plaque for the Bounty mates, Pitcairn Island
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2557778550010136137fczKeq
Pitcairn Bounty Monument
http://www.lareau.org/49-2.jpg
Because we don’t care. It’s a nit pick. It was a Royal Navy vessel. :rolleyes:
So, you are buddies with those Pitcairn guys who rape women as they no doubt learned from the crew of HMAV Bounty? 
They also think that Fletcher Christian was some kind of hero. I would put much stock in their opinion on anything.
[quote=“bonitas, post:68, topic:490614”]
As for the word ‘mutiny’ (notably left out of the 1984 movie title) the English-language dictionary is quite specific about what is a ‘mutiny’, and what is an act of ‘piracy’, whether generations of writers going back to the 18th century fully understood this or not. Again, I can only repeat that in British Law the main charges and findings relating to the Bounty offenders are recorded as stated in King George III’s Articles of War; namely ‘piratical seizure/running away’ with HM Armed Vessel Bounty, and not under Section 19 relating to ‘mutinous behavior/conduct’.
It appears that throughout the trials and various court martial’s that the whole centered around the act of piracy of the HMAV Bounty.
Court-Martial of William Bligh et al.
for the Loss of the Bounty October 22, 1790
The Secrecy of the Mutiny was beyond all Conception, so that I cannot discover
that any who was with me had the least knowledge of it, and the comparative lists will shew the strength of the Pirates.
http://fatefulvoyage.com/trial/trial00BlighLetter.html
Bligh’s Narrative of the Mutiny and the Voyage in the Launch
http://fatefulvoyage.com/bligh/blighMutinyAMutiny.html
There remained on board the Bounty, as pirates,
FLETCHER CHRISTIAN Master’s Mate
PETER HAYWOOD Midshipmen
EDWARD YOUNG Midshipman
GEORGE STEWART Midshipman
CHARLES CHURCHILL Master at Arms
JOHN MILLS Gunner’s Mate
JAMES MORRISON Boatswain’s Mate
THOMAS BURKITT Able Seaman
MATTHEW QUINTAL Ditto
JOHN SUMNER Ditto
JOHN MILLWARD Ditto
WILLIAM MCKOY Ditto
HENRY HILLBRANDT Ditto
MICHAEL BYRNE Ditto
WILLIAM MUSPRAT Ditto
ALEXANDER SMITH Ditto
JOHN WILLIAMS Ditto
THOMAS ELLISON Ditto
ISAAC MARTIN Ditto
RICHARD SKINNER Ditto
MATTHEW THOMPSON Ditto
WILLIAM BROWN Gardiner
JOSEPH COLEMAN Armourer
CHARLES NORMAN Carpenter’s Mate
THOMAS MCINTOSH Carpenter’s Crew
In all 25 hands, and the most able men of the Ship’s company.
OCCURRENCES AT COUPANG; VOYAGE TO BATAVIA, &c.; ARRIVAL IN ENGLAND.
By George Hamilton, Surgeon of the Pandora.
They were soon landed at a small Dutch settlement; but the governor having a
description of the Bounty’s pirates from our court,
http://fatefulvoyage.com/pandora/pandoraMHamilton05.html
Capt. Edwards’ Report from Batavia, Nov 25, 1791
Before we anchored at Matavy Bay, Joseph Coleman, Armourer of the Bounty, and several of the natives came on board, from whom I learned that Christian the
pirate had landed and left 16 of his men on the Island, some of whom were then at Matavy,
http://fatefulvoyage.com/pandora/pandoraCEdwardsBatavia01.html
Capt. Edwards’ Report from Batavia, Nov 25, 1791
On the 14th, Henry Hillbrant, one of the pirates, gave information that Christian
had declared to him the evening before he left Otaheite that he intended to go
with the Bounty to an uninhabited island discovered by Mr. Byron,
http://fatefulvoyage.com/pandora/pandoraDEdwardsBatavia02.html
Capt. Edwards’ Report from Batavia, Nov 25, 1791
On mustering we discovered that 89 of the ship’s company and 10 of the pirates
that were on board were saved, and that 31 of the ship’s company and 4 pirates
were lost with the ship.
http://fatefulvoyage.com/pandora/pandoraFEdwardsBatavia04.html
Capt. Edwards’ Report from Cape of Good Hope
Mar 19, 1792
I embarked the remainder of the Company of His Majesty’s ship Pandora, pirates
late belonging to the Bounty and the convicts deserters from Port Jackson, on
board three Dutch East India ships as follows:—
http://fatefulvoyage.com/pandora/pandoraGEdwardsGoodHope.html
Capt. Edwards’ Final Report
Admiralty Office, Jun 19, 1792
I thought it proper to remove the pirates late belonging to His Majesty’s armed
vessel, the Bounty,
http://fatefulvoyage.com/pandora/pandoraHEdwardsFinal.html
John Fryer Testimony, Wed, Sep 12, 1792
Mr. Peckover said, “If we stay we shall be all deemed Pirates.”
http://fatefulvoyage.com/trial/trialAFryer.html
William Peckover Testimony, Thu, Sep 13, 1792
Mr. Fryer came down to my Cabbin he asked me what I meant to do for the best.
[I replied] that I wished to get Home if I possibly could, for by staying behind
we should be reckoned as Pirates, if we should ever be taken.
http://fatefulvoyage.com/trial/trialCPeckover.html
Peter Heywood Defense, Mon, Sep 17, 1792
By the Court—
Q. Did Peter Heywood inform you, whether he continued at Otaheite the first time, or went away in the “Bounty” with the Pirates?
A. I believe he did tell me that he went away with the “Bounty” the first time.
http://fatefulvoyage.com/trial/trialKHeywood.html
[quote=“baracuda_bells, post:106, topic:490614”]
I mentioned above that Heywood refered in court to the “mutiny of which I am accused.”
Not that I care what they were tried for, they mutinied and seized the ship which apparently made them guilty of the crime of piracy. 
This thread is fascinating. I never thought about reading the first person accounts of this case. What strikes me is how young a lot of the sailors were. At 15 and 16, it must have been a hard decision to decide what to do. It also seems that the Bligh could have benefitted from the availability of a few Navy SEALS.
Did he have no marines?
No, the ship/armed vessel was too small for a contingent of Marines. In fact Bligh was the only commissioned officer.
(See posts 63, 83, and your own subsequent post )
You can’t have one two marines to stand outside your cabin door?
I did manage to remember that in his account that I read from Gutenberg that Bligh offered Christian a warrant (or commission, whichever was appropriate) Would that be acting Lieutenant or Master’s Mate?
If the ship were large enough, you could have a whole contingent of marines stand outside your door.
Bligh never offered Fletcher Christian a “warrant” or “commission”, he had no authority for doing so, that could only be done by the Admiralty of the Royal Navy prior to signing on a ship.
See Thomas Huggan-surgeon. Warrant Officer
William Peckover-gunner, Senior Warrant Officer
William Purcell-carpenter, Senior Warrant Officer
William Bligh-Captain (Lieut.) Only “Commissioned Officer”
Bligh did give Fletcher Christian a temporary promotion as ‘acting Lieut.’ Christian was signed on board the Bounty as a ‘Masters-Mate’. That was his official position as listed in the Bounty’s muster.
“Acting Warrant”, perhaps. Thanks!
I do not think ‘they-the majority there’ would see it that way.
But yes, I am a friend of a few of them and have met some of them.
We share a ‘common past’.
Our ancestors sailed together on board the HMAV Bounty.
Mine ended up at Timor–England. Their’s ended up at Pitcairn Island.
I suppose if you were a Pitcairn Islander, you too would most likely think your ancestor was some kind of hero.
My ancestor sailed with Bligh and I guess I fall into that same category as he seems like a hero to me.
Of course The voyage in an open boat was heroic. In his narrative, he very occasionally seems to be making himself look good, and I am annoyed by his treatment of Peter Heywood, but others differ with my opinion about the latter two.
I got the impression from recent news that the male islanders are a bunch of vicious assholes. You might elaborate if they aren’t, and thanks.
Peter Heywood, James Morrison and William Musprat ‘all’ deserved to be hanged.
They were most fortunate that they were recommended for a pardon by the Admiralty to the King of England.
Heywood escaped hanging due to his family influences/political connections not to mention that he had a couple of uncles that served on the Admiralty board of the same court martial.
Of course that is my opinion.
As to the Pitcairn Islanders, they feel they got a raw deal. And in some ways, they may have. However, justice never seems fair to any of us (no matter what country on earth)as we all have our own concepts of ‘justice.’ I cannot see Britain making up stories on the other hand just to piss-off 50 some odd folks for the fun of it. Apparently, the victims did not feel this way.
The Pitcairn Islanders are a great bunch of folks inspite of all the publicity and life saunters on as always for them. Great improvements have been made to their ‘infrastructure’ which ‘they’ thought they would never see the light of day, and have come to pass with on-going improvements still being made.
These good people have ‘moved-on’ with their lives and rightly so. Cruise ships still come and go and the some of the families there continue to grow.
Let us be happy for these good people and whatever blessings they receive.
Here are a few internet links you may enjoy reading further.
I’ve included Nessy Heywood’s letters to her brother Peter before, during and after his trial for piracy.
You may also be interested in looking into the lives of the Pitcairn Islanders themselves so there are a couple of links in this regard.
I’ve also included George Tobin’s journal from HMS Providence of his voyage with then, Captain Bligh on the 2nd successful breadfruit voyage.
Captain Bligh’s main problem with the HMAV Bounty was his lack of good officers as you’ll see the differences here for comparison. As well, he has a contingent of Marines aboard this ship.
James Morrison was a very bitter person and as his life was hanging-in-the-balance as it were with the trial for his life, his journal reflects this as it was written “after” the piratical seizure of the Bounty and he started writing it during his trial while on board HMS Hector.
Dan Byrnes give a very broad aspect to the Bounty saga as it encompassed most of what was happening with Britain at that time.
Pitcairn Islands Government Web Site
Chris Double’s PITCAIRN NEWS
http://www.pitcairnnews.co.nz/index.html
The Blackheath Connection
a website book by Dan Byrnes
http://www.danbyrnes.com.au/blackheath/
James Morrison- Journal on HMS Bounty and at Tahiti, 1787-1792
On-line journal and complete
http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/Ebind/cy515/a1221/a1221000.html
Charts from the voyage of HMS Providence 1791-1793
http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/ebindshow.pl?doc=dl_bligh/a123
George Tobin - Journal on HMS Providence, 1791-1793
http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/Ebind/cy1421/a1220/a1220001.html
Transcript
http://image.sl.nsw.gov.au/Ebind/cy1421/a1220/a1220000.html
Nessy Heywood
(read most of her letters to Peter, her brother here)
BY THE LATE
A. W. MOORE, C.V.O.,
Speaker of the House of Keys.
Douglas, Isle of Man:
Brown & Sons, Ltd., “The Isle of Man Times,”
Athol Street.
1913.
http://www.isle-of-man.com/manxnotebook/fulltext/nh1913/index.htm#contents
It’s a legal, dry reference to how the Bounty’s seizure was perceived before the trial(s) of the returned, surviving crewmembers began.
The source of reference is a legal work entitled ‘Law Officers’ Opinions’, No, 274, dated July 27th, 1792. In this a law lord, a Mr Thomas Broderick, gave his opinion:-
‘The doubt whether an offence such as is here stated amounted at Common Law to an Act of Piracy seems to have been entertained when the Legislature passed the Act of the 11th and 12th of William 3rd, chapter 7; in the perusing of which Statute I observe that the Words are mostly adapted to the case of ships belonging to private owners; and the case of Captain Kidd which gave occasion to it was, if I recollect right, of that kind. The discipline of the Royal Navy was at that time provided for, as it is now, by a particular Act of Parliament. And upon reading over the preamble of the 22nd of Geo,II, c.33, it appears to me that the intention of the Act was to make a separate provision for the trial of offences on board the King’s Ships and to exclude all other tribunals. I am therefore humbly of opinion that the proper way of proceeding in this Case will be by a Court Martial according to the Articles of War.’
As we know, section 19 referring to “Mutinous Assembly” was not applied in the charges at the Court Martial because the navy’s lawyers knew that there was no evidence that “mutinous Assemblies or uttering seditious Words” had ever taken place aboard ship, under the provisions of section 19.
That’s why section 15 came into play:- “of deserting or running away with Ship or Stores” meaning theft as in piracy. (Also there was section 16 …“of deserting or inticing others”… But as any half-wit knows, desertion is not mutiny either.)
As some people think they know more about British law than the 18th century lawyers did, perhaps those who so love the title ‘Mutiny on the Bounty’ might like to explain the difference between the recent theft or piracy of ships off the coast of Somalia, and that of the Bounty. Apart, that is, from the glaringly obvious difference that one set of maritime thieves came from without, while the other set of maritime thieves came from within the pirated ships.
Two weeks ago I toured a replica of The Bounty.
Docked here in St. Petersbugh
The wonderfully young (24) crew member who gave the tour
has never read the book.
He admits all of his knowledge comes from the various facts posted on the ship.
He never saw the movies but is quite impressed that this replica has made an appearance in The Sponge Bob movie as well as Pirates of the Caribbean
gah.
ps the ship is headed for New York for anyone interested in seeing it.