No, mainly because claiming a kid ought to be read Miranda rights and informed of his 5th Amendment privileges before talking to his school with the potential of being disciplined is ridiculous. Did I miss the part of the post where criminal prosecution was coming in to play?
Parent here with a 16YO Aspergers kid, diagnosed with ADHD at age 6 and AS at age 10. Vlad jr has done well on Concerta, Depakote and Seroquel (mood stabilization and sleeping at night). AS and ADHD are the most inheritable pediatric behavioral disorders with a genetic root cause (at least 100 genes in various combinations of mutations and copy number variations have been associated with AS and autism). We have been fortunate that with the diagnoses and genetic testing, we have been eligible for and had IEPs in place for Vlad jr, for many years.
Your son got railroaded and didn’t know how to defend himself, which is not unusual for autistic-type disorders. We went through this several times in middle school, and had to remind the staff that 1) there was a legally enforceable document in place (the IEP), so why weren’t they following it and 2) he is under a physician’s and psychiatrist’s care with lots of documentation available. Anything they questioned was well documented. I strongly urge you to seek a diagnosis and outside documentation. AS is no longer has the stigma that it used to have. Unless you have documentation, it’s your word against theirs, and you’ve seen how they are going to enforce their word.
THC in marijuana is fat soluble and is detectable well after smoking. The school system is on thin ice with their claim of drug use based on behavior alone, particularly with such an emotional disorder. Again, outside documentation is absolutely essential in protecting your child.
Good luck, and feel free to PM me for advice. We’ve been through a lot, and we’re starting to see a functioning individual emerge.
Talking of medications, a lot of people in my ASD support group swear by melatonin - in Australia this is available OTC and you don’t need to have a diagnosis of anything. It’s just for sleep issues, not anything else, but it may allow him to push his sleep time forward a couple of hours, which has to help.
Thanks so much for all of these replies. We just got back from seeing his regular pediatrician, and we have a referral for a neurologist. I thought it would be a psychologist/psychiatrist, but he said no, a neurologist needs to make the diagnosis. We are also having him drug tested as well as glucose testing in the morning.
Here are the symptoms my son has that have led me to think it is AS:
Social awkwardness
Inability to adapt to change
Clumsiness
Heightened sensitivity to sound, smell & taste
Flat affect (has that sleepy Droopy Dog look since he was an infant)
Fixated on a few interests and will talk excessively about those
Selective mutism (will not talk at all to certain people)
Bad Handwriting (like a first-grader, but does well with a computer keyboard)
Difficulty expressing specific emotions (says “I don’t know” alot when asked about feelings)
and most lately:
Inability to fall asleep and stay asleep, extreme difficulty waking up
The pediatrician told us to ge him some melatonin and we are going to start that tonight. His bedtime is 9:30-10:00pm.
user_hostile - yes we are already asking friends about lawyers because everyone’s reaction is that they can’t believe the way he was questioned. And yes, I have thought about calling the media. I live in a “poor” section of a very exclusive area, and in the past all the wealthy people out here have had their kids in private schools, but with the recent economic troubles, many of them are counting their pennies just like the rest of us so they had to take them out. This has all been just in time for a new public high school in this area, and there has been alot of press about how it important it is that this school be successful. The principal also told me that she and too many other people had too much invested in this new school to let anything ruin it. I see her point, but I feel my kid is being scapegoated.
Aspidistra - yes, I do indeed think the teachers have decided he is that wierd kid, and for whatever reason they have targeted him. I will tell you that one thing the principal said to him in front of me was “I know there are 10 other kids I can think of right now who ought to be in this chair instead of you, but you know what? I can’t catch them, but I caught you.” I was crying and upset at the time and couldn’t even respond to that comment. And you are right, the alternative school in our town is a place where the kids run wild, fight, threaten to beat the teacher up…etc… Everyone I have talked to said that kids don’t get better there, they get worse. I know it isn’t any place for my kid. The place is run like a prison and is basically the last stop before real jail.
EvilTOJ - Yes, I am also not a person who is always looking to a lawyer, but in this case I think my husband and I are going to at least consult with one. And yes, I agree about the whole laced with pills thing…makes no sense.
Leon497 - I have taught both my kids to be honest and to trust policemen and his teachers, and now I am wondering if this has caused a serious breach of trust with authority figures for him.
Carmady - yes, I have read simlar studies, that teens do not even function mentally until around 10 am, and if they were in school until 4-5pm there would be less mischief all the way around. He gets up at 5:45-6am, and that is why has to go to bed between 9:30 and 10pm. I think it is ridculous they start so early.
appleciders - my son’s IQ is 132 so he is no dummy, and when he is working on something he likes, he will work for hours. OTOH, getting him interested in other things is a huge challenge.
Markxxx - you are absolutely right, and I am not excusing what he did. He should be punished for it, because I did read the school’s code of conduct rules, and it does say that the school has jurisdiction ove the bus stop, so technically he was on the school’s time while he was there. Fine. Expel him for ten days. But for the whole year? And he can’t come back until he completes a “sentence” at an alternative school full of hardcore cases? I am telling you, if my child goes there he will shut down and we will lose him completely. I refuse to let them throw my child away. I have seen them do it to other kids and they are not doing it to mine, dammit. We are very open in our house regarding drugs and sex, so this has been an ongoing dailogue in our house. When he and his brother got into watching reruns of That 70s Show, I told them both not to buy into what you see there, that it was a different world then, and kids cannot get away with that kind of stuff anymore. We are pretty open parents. I know he isn’t an angel, but I really feel he wasn’t treated right. Sure he “confessed” but even a person who confesses to murder has to have some evidence to go along with it. Other than his confession, all they have is he was sleeping in class. They don’t know why he was sleeping, and I think they have jumped to a huge conclusion.
Moonlitherial - He has long hair, and I did suggest the hair test, but the pediatrician said to do a urine test. Depending on what that shows, we may go that route. And yes, I am steeling myself to stay calm for this meeting tomorrow.
Pandamom - I listed his behaviors above, and from what I have read and talked to others about, they do seem like AS.
MyFootszzz - Yes, the bio teacher just seems like a very excitable lady, and she has been all panic-y with me earlier in the year because she didn’t think he was answering her quickly enough, and she didn’t think he was listening to her. I think he used some of that selective mutism on her and she didn’t like it. She suggested to me a couple of months ago that “he must have taken something”. I told her that he is indeed a different sort of child and that there nothing wrong with marching to the beatof his own drummer. I also told him at that time that he needed to be respectful to her and comply with her demands. I have always told my kids to respect their teachers. I had no idea that would backfire like this.
Kelby - that’s just it…I don’t see where they have any evidence to prove their allegations. My son did tell me that while they were questioning him they searched him and pulled some debris out of jacket pockets. The principal and police officer spread it all out on the table and smelled it. My son said it looked like regular pocket lint to him. They told him, “This is pot residue”, and said he looked at them like they were crazy. They both stuck their faces into his jacket pockets and inhaled deeply. He did say they just raked the supposed “pot residue” on the floor and didn’t keep it. I guess they were just rying to scare him, which they did.
MsRobyn - You are right, I have sinced done a complete 180 on opinion about “labeling”. If labeling him will help stop people from misjudging him, then sobeit.
monstro - yes he does! He is a bigtime clutz. He has never played sports because he isn’t good at any of the ball sports. I have tried to get him into martial arts, though.
Garfield226 - I am concerned with all the legal terms they are using, “hearing” “sentence”, etc… surely a minor cannot be questioned by three adults for 30 minutes regarding something illegal without them even asking my persmission? I can understand them not wanting me or his dad there, but don’t they need to at least inform us? Or to have some other kind of advocate present? I just think a kid will confess to just about anything just ot get out of a situation like that, especially if you are being to told you won’t be in any trouble if you do.
Again, thanks for all the replies, and if I did not address you directly, I still value all the posts. If they do indeed rule that he is out for the rest of the year, we will home school him in lieu of the alternative school. Of course, the principal has said that he cannot come back until he fulfills the “sentence” at the alternative school, but I did read in the handbook that you can appeal the board’s ruling after 1 year. So my question to her tomorrow will be that if we can show 1 year’s worth of clean drug tests and satisfactory progress in home school, can he then come back? But I dunno if I even want him to. Home school is great, but what about all the social benefits he needs? What about Prom, class rings and graduation?
Vlad/Igor - Thank you! Yes, he does have an IEP, but it is for ADD, which I don’t think he has ever had. We have started the process to have him correctly diagnosed, but I fear it is too late for him and this school system. Like I said, it is our plan to home school if this falls through completely, but I worry then about even more social isolation. I will plan to get in touch with any home school groups in our area and just plain force him into some kind of social activity like martial arts or something.
You might want to get him checked for nasal allergies. Allergies can cause swollen sinus passages, which leads to difficulty breathing through the nose, which can cause drooling and poor sleep. Even if he doesn’t have the typical runny nose/itchy eyes, he can still be suffering from allergies.
Gah, the same sort of heavy handed scare tactic happened to my 10yo, overblown scape goated make the little girl cry sort of sham.
Your school is over reacting big time, and overstepped tbeir legal bounds imo as far as their "interrogation’ goes. Put a stop to it, he fell asleep in class, more a medical concern his counselors should intervene for than an expulsion. I wouldn’t accept their terms, the evidence of your concerns with a LD diagnosis along with sleep issues, and peer pressure…have them explain exactly why their punishment fits his “crimes”.
Get the whole story from your son, a timeline, of events. When meeting with the school authorities, be diplomatic, maybe apologise for the scare the teachers suffered ( 
)but remain firm, get the whole story and stay in control. Listen to their terms, then state your case, they can do better by your son!
Good luck, he’s worth it.
This is something to ask -
ah, yes, this. Get in touch with homeschool groups and find out what your options are. The group my goddaughters were part of was pretty large (about 50 kids) and they had a prom and class rings and all the rest.
For a family who is homeschooling out of choice, they retain the legal right to access to the school and district resources, such as having their kid try out for football, be in band, on student council or take a class they can’t manage at home. I don’t know how that changes if the student is expelled. It might be worth talking to a lawyer familiar with homeschooling issues about this, as well. *Perhaps *if you withdraw him before the process goes to expulsion on paper, you and he will still be able to access those parts of the public school system that would be useful to you.
Let me know if you need help contacting homeschoolers in your area; I might be able to pull up some connections for you.
Sounds like the right diagnosis then. ALot of what you described, is my son also. In your OP, I guess I latched on to the drooling and sleep issues. We use Lexapro (originally I had said levapro, which is incorrect). It is a Seratonin increaser (not technical description!). within 2 weeks of taking this medicine, he was able to correct is “cavemanlike walk”, (stooped shoulders, head looking downwards). He isn’t always good about this, but at least he can finally hear and follow the corrections. My son also says I don’t know alot, especially when the answer requires him to hypothesize about something. (ie: What do you think he meant by that.) If it isn’t a factual piece of info he is passing on to us, he can have a difficult time expressing his opinion. ANd, if someone counters his statement, that kinda derails things.
I am curious though, how/what will a neurologist do to diagnose AS??
Good luck with the school! Definately bring in a diagnosis, and get them OFF YOUR BACK!
Unless there’s a similarity of SOME kind from case to case, then the term “Asperger’s Syndrome” doesn’t mean anything at all.
I’m new to the autsim thing since China Bambina was officially diagnosed in Nov. it’s a work in progress.
As pointed out, labeling isn’t necessarily bad. From a school system perspective, if your son is on the spectrum then they have different budget avenues to provide additional help. School districts by federal law have to be accomodating. Officially diagnose and learn your rights. That’s what I’m going through. Please note, it may take 6 months to get a diagnosis.
Second, contact whatever Children’s Hospital that is in your area. They most likely have an autism center.
Third, contact whatever Children’s hospital that is in your area for a sleep clinic. It is common for children on the spectrum to have disruptive sleep. Theory is that sleep regulation is challenged. They can give you some ideas on sleep regulation, how to try melatonin, and if you want something more some very mild drugs that will help your son sleep.
I had a few years where China bambina would sleep anywhere from 9PM to midnight, and wake up wide awake a few times a week for at least a few hours. Needless to say, this sucked for her and for me. She now takes in miniscule blood pressure medicine with the side effect of causing sleep. With her now sleeping 10 hours a night every night, it has made a world of difference in her behavior, concentration, personality, outlook, etc. And it’s really nice for me to not have permanent jetlag.
Children’s Hospitals are fantastic places full of support with a mission to make your life as easy as possible to get help.
good luck
sulamith, no matter WHAT happens, get your son’s behind OUT of that whackjob Bio teachers class.
Life is too short to let your son’s education be turned into a living hell by someone who could not do applied parthanogenisis on herself.
We had issues with Vorlon Jr’s science teacher in 7th grade, and it’s the Israeli option now—“Never Again”
Seriously, quite a few of them sounded like my current teenager. If you look at all of them, my kids have had ALL of those symptoms, just not every kid had each symptom. So no, I probably wouldn’t.
My kids had friends who were very quickly labeled (by the school) with Asperger’s. For awhile there it was the hot label for anybody not performing up to his (or her, I guess) abilities. Might still be. I don’t believe all those kids had it. I think it was just an easy thing for the school to do.
“Kids had friends…” elicits suspicion right there. Most are socially isolated and have few, if any real friends, especially as they move into adolescence.
You don’t get it Garfield, do you? A cop was involved. And cops lie (“if he would just admit to doing drugs, then he wouldn’t be in any trouble and he could go back to class”). They can, to a limited extent, lie to a suspect, don’t you know? (See FRAZIER v. CUPP and one of the Perfect Master’s acolytes GFactor who wrote thiscolumn)
This incident escalated from a “discipline” problem to one involving a law enforcement officer. That’s a game changer: it’s no longer about cleaning erasers after school, it’s now about the kid who could have been arrested.
I don’t really care if the kid is an angel or not; that’s not the point. The school conspired to toss him out–they were not interested in the facts, not following the rules, nor reaching a fair conclusion, nor implementing a just punishment. IMHO, they saw the kid as a weird, suspicious outsider who could perceived as harming the schools “Leave-it-to-Beaver” character.
All they had was an allegation of drug use. That’s it–no evidence. Which occurred off-campus. Since the alleged violation took place outside the school’s jurisdiction (maybe a school bus stop counts–correct me if I’m wrong), they didn’t have grounds to arrest him. Drug testing would be inconvenient, because (I would guess) it would require parental consent. And heaven forbid, what if the test proves negative? Ooo! Now we got that weird kid, an Ursus arctos middendorffi mother, and a possible lawsuit.
What to do…what to do? Let’s see if we can get him to confess! A confession is as good as gold in a court-of-law. And a great way to intimidate **sulamith ** that she’s wasting her time.
Could have been worse I suppose. What if they’d coerced him into saying that he intended to commit a violent crime like shooting up a school? BAM! sulamith suddenly is going to wish her son had a lawyer. And she’s going to get the wrong kind of media attention. And her kid’s life is destroyed.
You might argue that could never happen, or is unlikely. PBS’s FrontLine did a story last week on what happens when innocent people are coerced into confessing to homicides in which the evidence is highly dubious .
You don’t really understand what a cop can do with your words. "Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. Cops do not go to court to defend you. They detain suspects, gather evidence, and go to court as witnesses so the prosecutor can win their case.
This is the rule when a cop suspects you of anything: You don’t say ANYTHING–not even if they have pictures, videos, audio, witnesses–until you have a lawyer present.
Puhleaze…the Fifth Amendment is the right guaranteed to every American citizen–even a minor, suspected of allegedly using drugs.
Hyperbole, indeed. :rolleyes:
sulamith, I strongly recommend you get a lawyer, and a privately administered drug tests from two independent labs, ASAP. If both tests show negative…quid pro quo.
I’ll be blunt. You don’t see her point–what she said is that her concern is about her image, not about doing the right thing. She’s using you.
“…too much invested in this new school to let anything ruin it.” Bullshit. She’s catering to another crowd that doesn’t include you. She’s suppose be looking out for her students–all of her students–including your son. Especially one whose never been in trouble at the school before.
So you’re not convinced. Well, riddle me this: if she’s willing to bend the rules to railroad your kid, what else is she willing to do? Walk away from this, and she’ll do it to someone else. Suppose the principle goes on to a higher office? Mayor? , State Legislator?, President?
Give her the mauling she deserves. :mad::mad::mad:
Sounds like somebody has a problem with cops. Good thing the kid wasn’t arrested, huh?
It’s a discipline problem. If they had arrested the kid based on what he said, you might have a point. They didn’t.
The kid was apparently not interested in following the rules either. I would agree that if the kid’s after-the-fact account of the story to his mother, who’s after-the-fact account is the only thing we’ve read about this is accurate, it seems like the school’s response is disproportionate. So is bringing the Fifth Amendment and Miranda into it.
Things have perhaps changed, and may vary from state to state or even among districts, but it was always made crystal clear to students in my district that things that happened at bus stops could be subject to discipline.
You have a weird habit of confusing a principal’s office with a court of law.
Of course, they didn’t.
Of course, they weren’t in court.
Of course it is. It just has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.
Exactly.
My district used “hearing”, I think, though I agree that “sentence” sounds a bit harsh. I also agree that it’s dishonest of the people involved at the school to suggest that a confession will make everything go away, when they don’t intend that to be the case.
I can’t imagine why you’d think that a student can’t be talked to by whoever the principal thinks needs to be involved. I would expect that a student who has a serious allegation made against him be talked to, by the principal, a vice-principal, possibly a guidance counselor, a teacher, any number of people depending on what the situation is. Drug use on school property is a serious allegation. Almost all the students are minors, requiring a parent to be present when talking to one about a disciplinary issue seems like it might hamper school functions just a bit.
You are making a lot of excuses for your son. It’s everyone else’s fault that he’s in the trouble he’s in, or it’s a self-diagnosed illness. How about “Yes, smoking at the bus stop was wrong, even if he just did it for a joke.”? Can we make that first step? It’s not mutually exclusive that he was in the wrong and that the school is being too harsh. It’s not mutually exclusive that his teachers are singling him out and that he’s not making as much of an effort as he should in classes. It’s not mutually exclusive that there’s a biological reason for some of his symptoms and the fact that he’s willfully disobeying rules. And it’s not mutually exclusive to say “You know, my son was wrong and he needs to try harder,” and “But I love him anyway, and I’m going to try and help him any way he can.”
Did I say they differ in all aspects? No, I did not.
But if a person reads a post like PandaMom’s first one, they may get the impression that Aspie people are like the Borg or Children of the Damned or something. That their condition is manifest in exactly the same way, across the board. Uh, no. Nothing is ever that simple.
I can believe that a child with Asperger’s can have sleeping problems quite easily, because generally children on the autism spectrum have sleeping problems. Indeed, people dealing with all kinds of neurological problems have sleeping issues. She seemed to be implying that since her boy didn’t have sleeping problems and he’s been diagnosed with AS, that there’s no way the OP’s son could have AS. I don’t think she really believes this, but that’s how her post came across to me.
Well put.
Wherever you are, there are AS/Austism support groups. Do a search on your city/state and austism resources. Call the Children’s Hospital Austism Center and they will refer you. Peer parents are generally *extremely *helpful and very open with their personal experience. I’m sure there are parents at that school district if not school who have already gone down the road of getting help and understanding for their kid. Tap into that. They can coach you on whether a velvet glove or iron fist nuclear armed lawyers are the preferred first step.
FWIW, there is a big debategoing on now about getting rid of the seperate Asperger’sdiagnosis and including it as part of the autism spectrum.
user_hostile - I can’t help but think there is some truth in what you are saying about the principal. She has some kids of high profile folks in this community in public school for the first time, and she wants very much to convince them that public schools can be as good or better than private schools.
Garfield226 - I appreciate your objective opinion. I have two sons. One is 17 and Mr. Social Butterfly that I can’t keep in the house. He has a ton of friends, is outgoing, confident, and a bit too grown for his own good. He went through a bad time and we had to use some pretty tough discipline on him, but he has seemingly moved through that and is maturing nicely. His younger brother, the subject of this thread, is quite the opposite. He is as introverted as his brother is outgoing. I never worry about him because he never goes anywhere except school. He is very bonded to me and is with me alot of the time. I don’t mean to be making excuses, it is just that this is apparently the first time he has done anything even remotely resembling this, and look what happened. I guess I am frustrated over the unfairness of it all because there are kids who get away with much worse and always manage to slip out of the noose. I doesn’t negate that what he did was wrong, though.
Whynot - I may just take you up on your offer of home school groups. I have a feeling I am going to need it.
Oh, and here’s another bit of info I just got from my 15-year old. He wasn’t even at the bus stop, he was over a block away when the incident happened, and I had him demonstrate to me how he smoked the cigarette, and he just did two puffs in and out of his mouth, so to quote Clinton, he didn’t inhale. If it was indeed pot, I am betting the test is going to come back negative anyway. It shows how naive he is about these things. His brother was not around because he rode to school with other friends. Again, the code of conduct says that the school has jurisdiction over kids on their way to and from school and at the bus stop, so I guess he is still under their jurisdiction. Gah, I am really getting sick of talking about it myself. Thanks for all the input. I’ll keep you posted as it goes along.
China Guy - Don’t I need to wait until I have a formal diagnosis to talk to support groups? I figured I needed that validation first. But yes, your suggestions are well-taken.