“Darling, where is your laundry?”
“I don’t know”
“If I don’t wash your clothes, they will get smelly.”
“I could get new clothes.”
“How darling? Your pocket money isn’t enough to buy new clothes every day.”
“I could get new clothes for Christmas.”
“You don’t want *any *presents except for new clothes?”
“… Maybe.”
“Really?”
“I’ll just go see if there are any clothes on my floor (razzenfrazzenmuttermumble)”
She’s almost ten. Have fun.
You don’t seriously think him telling a 3 year old that a road is closed when it isn’t is something that she will carry into adulthood as proof of a lying father?
Sometimes parenting has to be creative, especially when you’ve painted yourself into a corner. Swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth is noble, but not realistic when dealing with a toddler.
Seriously? You really think my 4 year old would suddenly remember when she’s 16 that I told her the road was closed, and come to a realization that there weren’t blinking light, police cars, etc? Then you’ll love this. Sometimes, when my wife’s working a 12 hr shift so I get up at 6 AM, and (by myself) get all the girls up, fed, dressed, ready for school, including making lunches and helping track down lost homework, drop the youngest one at preschool then take the older two to the bus stop, work a full day at work, pick everyone up from their after school program or daycare, get home, get the message that my wife won’t be home till late so I have to handle homework, dinner, bedtime routines myself, and one of them demands stir fried teriyaki chicken & vegetables or some other time consuming meal for dinner, rather than go through all the above as reasons for why I won’t be making their request, I’ll just say “Sorry, we’re out of chicken. Pasta tonight.” No doubt they’ll all be dancing on poles for dollar bills when they turn 18.
Sorry, you lost me on the “one of them demands” part. Why can’t you just tell them “no, we aren’t having that today, we are having this…end of discussion. Now go do your homework”?
Doing all of this negotiating, cajoling, and coming up with apologetic lies rather than just saying a simple no seems to be a good way of teaching your kid that they are the boss, and not you. Sorry if I’m sound judgemental. I don’t have any kids myself, but if this is what you have to go through to raise them nowadays, I’m not sure I want any part of it.
A few weeks ago at dinner, we were discussing how difficult it is to get kids to listen and behave. One of my older brothers reminded me that years ago, before I had kids of my own, I would say things like “Doing all of this negotiating, cajoling, and coming up with apologetic lies rather than just saying a simple no seems to be a good way of teaching your kid that they are the boss, and not you.” I apologized immediately for having been a dick when I said that, since I now can see that I hadn’t known the first thing about raising kids when I said it.
Sometimes you just need to get a problem fixed and you don’t want another fight. White lies don’t hurt anyone.
Yeah, raising them “nowadays” is a pain in the ass. A hundred years ago you could just belt ‘em across the chops for sassin’ you, then send them off to work in the mill for sixpence every fortnight, but things aren’t as easy now.
I’m not saying white lies are harmful. I just think they are a poor substitute for communicating to a kid why they aren’t entitled to certain things. Not seeing why that’s so controversial.
Yeah, I don’t have kids. This I already admitted. That doesn’t mean my opinion is an invalid one. And I’m sure that when I do become a parent, I’ll find that I may resort to doing the same thing muldoonthief does from time to time. That doesn’t mean that it’ll suddenly be the right way to handle those situations.
“No” =! “Belt 'em across the chops”. Do you really think it is, muldoontheif? Maybe that’s where the disconnect is coming from. 'Cause I have no idea why you’re talking about abuse when the suggestion is that you simply say no to a demanding request from your kid.
Because that doesn’t magically make them go be quiet and away, or at least it doesn’t all the time. The pesky little buggers have minds of their own. Sometimes they want to convince you that yes, it would be in everyone’s best interest if you made teriyaki chicken.
There’s no right way all the time. I put that whole story for 2 reasons - to show that I’m too damned tired to make a complex dinner, and that I’m too damned busy to get in an involved discussion with a child as to why I’m not going to make a complex dinner. There’s a recent thread I’m having trouble searching for where someone points out - a child has a lot more time to invest in such things than a parent does. I can’t always get tied up for 20 minutes in a discussion as to why we aren’t having teriyaki chicken tonight, since one of the reasons is that I don’t have 20 minutes for anything.
I meant what do you do when they persist after you’ve said “No” ? A long time ago, it would have been acceptable to smack a kid who didn’t take no for an answer, and I’m guessing it worked pretty well in the short term. I don’t do that, and I’m glad that’s no longer acceptable. But that means I’ve got only a few options - get into a discussion which I have neither time nor energy for, yell at them, or tell a white lie. In the interest of peace and quiet, sometimes I tell the lie.
Sometimes, saying “No” will not cut it, particularly with a sleepy, irritable 3 year old.
You may say it, but that does not thereby magically create obedience on their part.
That is where discipline comes in - that failure to obey has consequences. Time-outs, deprivation of favorite activities, physical removal from the premises, etc. - up to and, depending on the parenting philosophy, including physical punishment (something I myself am not in favour of, but I’m not against other parents who do it - whatever works).
Thing is, discipline also has consequences for parents. It can be time consuming. It takes energy. The necessity for it may come at an inappropriate moment. You have to, to an extent, choose your battles wisely. Making every little thing into a battle of wills can be very frustrating. Plus, it can make no sense - for example, if the reason you don’t wish to serve chicken is that you are pressed for time, making a time-consuming battle over whether to serve chicken or not isn’t the best outcome.
Certainly I would agree that you can’t avoid imposing discipline forever by negotiation, compromise or telling white lies, but sometimes these techniques can be necessary and useful tools - as long as you retain the ability to say “no” about stuff that really matters, and make it stick.
Edit: amusing convergance of opinion with Muldoonthief
you with the face, I reread your post, and I think I see the disconnect. Yes, when child said “I want teriyaki chicken stir fry for dinner”, my first response was indeed “No, we’re having pasta.” When she willfully and with malice aforethought refused to simply say “Yes Father, pasta will be lovely, I shall begin upon my homework,” but instead said “But Daddieee! I want teriyaki chicken!” I resorted to lying about the availability of chicken.
For what it’s worth - I DO have kids, 3 of them, and I agree with you completely.
There’s no reason why anyone should only expect their kids to do something if the kid agrees with the parent - thus making it the parent’s job to somehow finagle an agreement. And firmly saying “Because I’m the mother, that’s why…” to cries of “unfair” and “how come” isn’t even remotely like belting a child.
As a matter of fact, children LIKE it when a parent puts their foot down and makes the decisions - it clearly shows who the grown-up is so that they are free to be the kid. In the instance that started this thread - the girl is left with the belief that she has the power to short circuit her entire family’s trip just by being unhappy. That’s quite a burden.
Maybe I’ve just gotten extremely lucky with my kids, but I’ve never found a need to resort to white lies. Negotiating about some things, sure. I try to recognize that they legitimately have their own preferences for things and if there is a way I can accommodate that without much effort on my part we’ll try to work it out. On the other hand, if they are asking for something I just can’t deal with at the moment I’ll tell them (and give a reason why) and they seem to understand that. I’ve just never felt the need to try to trick or hide something from them.
In our house, if they don’t like what is being cooked for dinner they are free to make a sandwich for themselves. I can appreciate the fact they won’t like everything we cook and I certainly don’t want them to go hungry, so we talked about it and came up with something we thought was fair to everyone.
I agree white lies aren’t going to do any permanent damage to anyone, but I’ve just never really felt the need to resort to them. Like I said, maybe I’m just extremely lucky that way.
I’d agree that putting the foot down is sometimes quite necessary; where I disagree, is that it is always the best or only strategy.
When you “put your foot down”, you have to back it up. There is nothing worse for discipline than saying “no” and then having the kid disobey without consequence - I see a lot of that in my sibs-in-law.
Once when our kid was unruly and did not obey, I’ve physically removed him from a family gathering (after a warning of same). This may be a “burden” on the kid, but it had the effect of indicating that disobedience has consequences - the fun stops. It means that in the future presumably I’ll not have to do it again, because the kid will learn that I mean what I say.
And then what would you have done if she opened the fridge and pulled out the chicken?
I would play dumb like I didn’t know/had forgotten it was in there, and then I would tell her that it was too much work to debone & cut up the chicken, and that’s just too bad. Which, granted, might seem like it’s easier to just say that in the first place, but chance are, she’s not going to go hunting for chicken.
First off, just want to say I know it’s annoying when someone who’s not a parent feels they can chime in on the subject of raising kids. So take what I’m saying with a grain 'o salt.
“But Daddieee! I want teriyaki chicken!” would have gotten a stern “Okay, but we’re having pasta. If you don’t want to eat pasta, I guess you won’t be eating” in the house I grew up in. And there wouldn’t have been any apologies about it. There’s nothing to apologize for, so why should there be.
Lying about not having chicken only tells your kid that her whining could have worked if only there’d been chicken. I wouldn’t want my child to think that. Not only because that’s not the way the real world works, but because that means tomorrow or the day after that, inevitably we’re going to have to repeat this song and dance. And what’s going to happen when there is chicken and she knows it?
Surely your fatigue, feelings, and desires are relevant factors in deciding what’s on that night’s menu. So why not let your kid know that? “I’m tired, teriyaki chicken takes too much time to prepare, we’ll eat pasta tonight and have the teriyaki stuff another day, okay?” If she still insists on her way, she’s not deserving of anything except discplinary action, IMO.
I agree with you that there’s no one right way all the time. But whether the subject is kids or something else, quick fix solutions often turn around and bite us in the ass later. This might be something to think about if certain aggravating behaviors are a reoccuring theme in your household.
Again, take all of that with a grain of salt if you wish.
Did the four-year-old refuse to sleep in the cot by herself? Wouldn’t that permutation have been a solution?
Belted her across the chops.
To be serious - After getting over my shock that she knew what prepackaged boneless chicken breasts looks like and how to get anything out of the fridge for herself, I would have told her I made a mistake, we do have chicken, but we’re having pasta anyway. Then I would have offered to make teriyaki chicken another night, perhaps tomorrow. Which is what I usually do anyway when they ask for something reasonable that I don’t have time & energy to make that night.
No, for a couple of reasons. The 8 year old, who was in the cot, is ridiculously tall, has orangutanian arms, and flails about in her sleep. Putting her in with the 6 year old wouldn’t have worked. Secondly, the 4 year old has asthma, and has a tendency to squeeze herself into tight spaces. Especially in her sleep. My wife found her one time at home stuck in between the bed and the wall - we moved the beds the next day so hers is in the middle of the room. The cot is against the wall, so she can’t sleep there. Moving the furniture around in that room would be a pain in the ass as well. Finally, setting the above aside, making the 8 year old get out of bed and switch places just to suit the whim of the 4 year old would have been sending the wrong message as well. Not that the one I sent with my driving adventure was the right one, or the best one, but teaching her it’s OK to inconvenience her sisters, as well as teaching all 3 of them that the way to get what you want is to complain, and the kid who quietly does as she’s told will get screwed over, would be very bad.
I guess I don’t see the point in going the “white lie” route in the first place if might end up having to explain it away later. It becomes a game of how well you can lie vs. how much effort they want to spend figuring out if you’re lying. How can the kid argue when you tell them you’re too tired? As you with the face points out, it can easily end with “No.” If whining sometimes works of course the kids will learn to keep whining until they get what they want.
In our house, the absolute guarantee you won’t get what you want is to start whining. I personally feel kids deserve the same respect I’d like to have shown to me.
Someone here on this very message board reminded me of the second most powerful phrase in a parent’s arsenal the other day. I had known it, but I’d forgotten it. Here it is, ready?
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
Repeat as needed.
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
Just like that. Keep repeating it.
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
Soon, it becomes rather zen…a koan, if you will…
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
See? It works for **anything **they throw at you…
“I’ve given you my answer, and I’m done talking about it.”
Ahhhh…it’s incredibly relaxing, really.
