Interesting website you have as your signature, vanilla. I skimmed it a little but would like to go back.
Yes, vanilla, I was asked my opinion on a certain subject, I didn’t bring it up myself. I gave a truthful answer and it wasn’t liked. I do feel, though, that we should be open to the Spirit’s leading and if we’re led to bring something up to someone, I think we should do it, albeit in a loving manner.
I can’t and won’t ever agree with Lekatt on this. Because I want to be stubborn or hateful or intolerant, etc? NO! Simply because it contradicts the teaching of Scripture. A sacrifice **is[/] required to atone for God’s holy wrath against sin. In the old testament He required the sacrifice of animals as a covering for sin. They had to do it over and over. Jesus came and paid for it once and for all. As important as love obviously is, Jesus died on that cross for our sins. It’s what He specifically came to do. Hebrews 10:12 says of Jesus - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God. Didn’t John the Baptist say in John 1:29 - Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world?
Also Jesus Himself said in Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sin. Remission = pardon, forgiveness.
And then we have it clearly stated for us in 1 Corinthians 15:3 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.
How much clearer does it need to be? I’m sorry but I have to say that any doctrince that says that Jesus didn’t die for our sins is false. I can point to any number of scriptures that say otherwise.
The gospel that Lekatt (once again, nothing personal against him) puts forth sounds wonderful and glorious and attractive but it’s not the gospel of the Bible. It’s a lie straight from the pit because it lets people stay warm and cozy in their lives and tells them they need do nothing, believe nothing, etc. It’s a lie and I’ll always say it’s a lie. I’m concerned about what you call the “lurkers” on the board who may be seeking spiritual truth that they may be deceived by this false gospel.
Polycarp, I cannot imagine you offending anybody!!
Even if you tried! 
I do know what you mean, when I was not saved, if anyone had said, your a sinner, your on your way to hell! I would’ve been freaked out and scared and run the other way.
But if someone had said God sent His son to die for you becasue He loves you That Much, then…it gets easier to accept.
Although, no one ever witnessed to me,it was a Hal Lindsey book that did it!
His4Ever, yes, I am a foursquarian, which is basically a pentecostal type christian.
Assemblies of God agree with them completely also.
**H4E wrote:
I can’t and won’t ever agree with Lekatt on this. Because I want to be stubborn or hateful or intolerant, etc? NO! Simply because it contradicts the teaching of Scripture.**
No, it doesn’t! What it does do is contradict YOUR understanding of Christian Scripture.
You’ve been challenged several times in this thread to show why your interpretation of Christian Scripture is better than Lekatt’s or Polycarp’sand every time you’ve said “well, can’t you SEE why?” or just not replied.
So, His4Ever, show us why your interpretation is better. By what authority do you make the statement that your interpretation is better or more accurate than anyone else’s?
There are more than 2000 denominations of Christianity. Each denomination believes their interpretation of the Bible is the best one, and some believe their’s is the only one. That everyone else is going to hell.
I believe this is brought about by the hundreds of contradictions one can find in the Bible. The Bible had over 40 authors who lived anywhere from hundreds of years to thousands of years apart. Each wrote what he believed God wanted him to write and mirrored the culture of his time.
I often get email from ministers, priests, and pastors saying they have read a lot of near death experiences and are encouraged by them, but have certain reservations about some of their church doctrine not agreeing with NDEs.
I write back: when an experiencer moves into the presence of God’s love and light, all doctrinal differences disappear. All fear is dissolved by God’s love, and there is nothing more important than the love and acceptance from our Creator.
We can all meet at the point of God’s love, when we can’t meet anywhere else. It is the saving grace of the world.
Seek to know love and learn of its power.
Love
Leroy
I’m not all happy-joyous for Jesus. On the contrary, I am a brooder. I feel anger with God. I have doubts. I’m prone to depressive episodes. When asked if I truly believe, I can’t imagine ever being totally certain. The multiplicity of possibilities boggles the mind, yet I do believe that Jesus is the best option when all is said and done. I may say otherwise, but I keep coming back to Jesus.
I just don’t understand where doubt has become sinful. In this respect, I understand the Catholic viewpoint more than the Protestant viewpoint. How can we, as humans, know? Isn’t that deigning to read the mind of God?
As for depression and Christianity, I have been recently attending (sporadically) a new church (non-denominational. Not only are there thousands of denominations in Christianity, there’s also thousands of individual churches!)where the pastor is quite up front about his own struggles with depression. At first it utterly amazed me, but in many ways, it’s been a great blessing.
(Please feel free to e-mail me about this. While I enjoy discussing the finer points of evangelical Protestant ideas of salvation, I’m not certain that everyone will appreciate one large hijacked thread.)
It is wonderful and it is Biblical. You can find it in the teachings of Jesus and in I Cor. 13 the love chapter.
It certainly is in the Bible, its the part you don’t read.
Don’t worry about the lookers, they can read for themselves.
Love
Leroy
The Scriptures I put forth are also in the Bible and they wonderfully show the loving sacrifice for sins that Jesus became for us. You choose to ignore these Scriptures. As I stated before, Jesus Himself stated at the last supper that His blood would be shed for many for the remission of sins. You’re not telling the whole story, just repeating what you were told in a near death experience. God is love. God is holy also and a sacrifice for sin is required. The whole story is in the Bible, not just the one sided view that you represent.
To lel, I’ve sent you an e mail. I hope it went through.
I could say the same thing. Why is Lekatt’s interpretaion better? I’ve stated plain words that anyone can understand from the Bible that state Jesus died for our sins. Lekatt says He didn’t. Should I believe him or what the Bible says?? I don’t know what you mean by “show us your interpretation is better”. I read sentences that say that He did this for us yet you say it’s not true. If that’s what you want to say, I can’t counteract it in your mind. If you disagree with the words found in the Bible that say “Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures” there’s nothing more to say, you’ve made your choice.
I thought it was something like that. I’ve heard the term “foursquare” before but it’s been awhile.
::: Sigh! :::
His4Ever wrote: “God’s Holy Wrath”. Does this mean there is Holy Anger and Holy Hate also.
His4Ever also wrote that Jesus’ execution was a “loving sacrifice.” Is that why Jesus cried out in pain: “Father, why hast thy forsaken me.” I can not conceive of a God that enjoys torturing and killing His children. He is not the God I know. He is a God of hate, torture and death.
I will stick with the God of the Bible as told by Jesus.
My God is universal, unconditional love. He cares for all of His children equally and holds them safe and secure eternally.
Sorry about yours, His4Ever.
Whoa. Back up. I’ve been reading this entire thread (and it’s a biggie!) but I don’t recall Lekatt teaching anything about doing nothing, being nothing, believing nothing. Rather, I’ve read some of Lekatt’s message as this: Jesus’s essential message is to act like him, believe that his way of life is the correct one, and do likewise rather than simply believe he is god and do nothing. And I agree with Lekatt: too many Christians do too much of the latter and shockingly little of the former.
H4E, it’s my interpretation that you’re a Christian because you were born one. Now, I’m not trying to say that you don’t study and that you don’t seek for more enlightenment (you’ve said you struggle, so I’m sure that you do, and I admire it), but how many times have you looked at alternatives? How many other religions have you examined? Have you even considered that there might not be a god, and what that might mean for you? If you have, what caused you to reject it? Have you ever read any books by Christians-turned-atheists? Or do you read Stroebel because he’s been recommended as someone who’s views already agree with yours?
I ask these questions because my husband’s a Christian-turned-atheist, and he asks these questions of me. Of the people I know, Mr. Snicks has done more examining and questioning of his religion than nearly all other Christians I can name. He’s studied other religions, eastern and western, and has restructured his belief set to fit what makes sense to him. Even if that meant abandoning it. To him, it’s more noble to be a good person just to be a good person than it is to be good because you’re afraid of fire and brimstone. And he’s helped me grow, as well. So many fundamentalists take the easy way out - “Well, Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Jews all have had the chance to hear the ‘Good News’ and missionaries are putting the word out, therefore it’s their choice if they don’t believe and they’ll pay their own consequences. They rejected the message.”
Except they didn’t. I don’t have a cite (I’ll try to look, promise), but most people never change the religion they were born into. Never. It’s a staggering minority that, after examination, abandon their birth religion for another. I’ve little doubt that if H4E was born in Nepal, she’d be witnessing as to how to attain enlightenment as a Buddhist. But God’s going to damn these people because they were born into a differing religion. Uh huh. No way I’m going to believe in a God that will murder hundreds of thousands of good, upright people because of a loophole.
I wish more Christians would stop worrying about their and others’ salvation. It’s not their decision to make. Be a good person. Be kind to other people. Treat people as you would treat Jesus. Let the Guy in the know worry about who’s saved and who’s not. Frankly, I don’t have the time or the inclination - I’d rather spend my time helping others and doing what’s right.
Snickers
His4Ever, these two statements of yours back on page 3 have been bothering me a bit (aside to British Dopers – does this make us both Page 3 girls?;)), so I thought I’d bring it up.
It’s rather easy to read these statements as saying that some people are more Christian than others. I like you well enough to want to think well of you, but I’m also aware that in the past at least, you haven’t been entirely sure Catholics are Christian. As I understand your beliefs on salvation, only Christians, specifically, those who have named Christ as their Saviour, are to be saved. Did you mean to imply that merely professing Christ as one’s Saviour isn’t enough or that one can be a Christian and still be condemned?
Look, I’m not condoning the behaviour of the people I referred to in the post you were replying to. I just get nervous when people try to say someone’s more Christian than someone else. Among other things, I remember the self-proclaimed pillars of morality, including, I believe Jerry Falwell himself, who seemed to have no problem committing adultery until they were caught. Closer to home, I remember a certain married fundamentalist preacher of my acquaintance who was as concerned with the state of my body as he was my soul.
The post I’m quoting from, by the way, at 9:18 am on 10/18.
CJ
Hi CJ, I’m not sure what you mean by British dopes and page 3 girls but that’s ok.
I didn’t intend to say that some people are more Christian or saved than others. The truth is that a person is either a Christian and saved or isn’t and is lost. There isn’t an in between. You either are or you aren’t. Unfortunately somtimes it’s hard for us to tell whether someone is, only God can know for sure. The reason it’s so hard is that there are many good people who don’t know Christ and many who have accepted Him, yet sometimes can act very unchristian. I myself was angry at work this morning and probably didn’t act as I should have but this doesn’t make me doubt my salvation. Christians fail and fall short and must ask forgiveness. I may not be explaining this very well but when I said that going to church doesn’t make anyone a Christian just like living in a chicken coop doesn’t make you a chicken I simply meant that a person can do all the right outward actions, go to church, sing in the choir, etc, but if they’ve never taken the time to ask Jesus into their hearts, they’re lost. This may be hard to understand but works and church membership isn’t what saves us, though they are good and necessary things.
No, I don’t think a true Christian can be condemned. The Lord knows them that are His and He will discipline, Read 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. In this passage one of the Christians was involved in fornication. Paul, in his letter, told them what to do. He was to be delivered to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved. I don’t know what this entails but it sounds to me like this person wasn’t listening to any counsel and refused to stop what he was doing and the Lord took him on home (death).
Then you can have people in the world doing the same things, sexual sins, stealing, murder and it never bothers them and nothing ever happens to them it seems. I’ve heard it said that the Lord doesn’t spank the devil’s children. Anyway, there’s a difference between a lost person that’s sinning and doesn’t think a thing about it and a Christian who falls into sin. God is going to discipline that person in some way or another if they ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit to stop.
Am I making any sense or is it clear as mud?? What’s the difference between accepting Christ as Saviour and professing Him as Saviour? You talk about both. Is there a difference?
All I know is that accepting Him as Saviour must be a heart thing, not a mere mental assent to His existence.
As to the children who taunted you when you were young, I wasn’t there so I can’t really say for sure about them. Nor do I know how old these kids were so I don’t really have enough info to give an opinion as to their spiritual state. Sorry this is so long. Don’t know if I’ve clarified anything or not but I tried.
His4Ever quote: “Read 1 Corinthians 5:1-5. In this passage one of the Christians was involved in fornication. Paul, in his letter, told them what to do. He was to be delivered to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved. I don’t know what this entails but it sounds to me like this person wasn’t listening to any counsel and refused to stop what he was doing and the Lord took him on home (death).”
Looks like you came upon one of the verses used during the Inquistions to justify killing the non-believers.
There is one that says: “Do not suffer a witch to live.” This was used to burn so-called witches at the stake.
There is also one that says “Women should not be allowed to talk in church.”
Do you know that Jesus said to forgive seventy times seven.
Anything, and I mean anything, can be proved by the Bible. Verse manipulation is a skill of those who wish to control others.
The Bible can be used for great good, or it can be used for great evil, depending on what is in the heart of the teacher.
I would like for everyone to not pay attention to me or anyone else. Please read to whole Bible, ignoring the numbers, they are only in the way. Learn for yourself. Read Bible history, church history, and compare religions. Only then you will see the true and not be frightened by the teachers of fear.
Love
Leroy
Lekatt, I’ve got a couple of minor nitpicks. I’m afraid I’m not awake enough to tackle everything.
First of all, I’m told in the phrase “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” from the King James version of the Bible, the word “witch” is actually more accurately translated “poisoner” or “assassin”. The word “witch” was selected to justify the witch-burnings which were going on in King James’ time.
Second, whether Matthew 18:22 is translated “seventy times seven” or “seventy-seven”, and it has been translated both ways, the general meaning is an incredibly large number, sort of like “a gagillion.” In other words, we’re supposed forgive people an infinite number of times.
By the way, someone once told me about a negative near-death experience she had, but I’ll save that for a more appropriate thread.
His4Ever, let me get the fun stuff out of the way first. A “Page 3 Girl” is a good-looking, scantily clad young woman whose picture appears on page 3 of one of the British tabloid newspapers, The Sun, if I remember right. Basically, they’re pin ups. Given the way I think you and come across, and the thread I’m about to start, somehow I don’t think we’d be mistaken for Page 3 Girls, but I couldn’t resist.
Now, about Paul. I’ve had my difficulties with him over the years, particularly the verse which says “women shall be silent in church” since I’m not exactly good at being silent anywhere. First of all, let me point out to you that between 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 and Matthew 18:22, we’ve got Paul and Christ standing in direct opposition, with Paul advising people to condemn and Christ telling people to forgive.
Paul was human, mortal, and fallible. Before his experience on the road to Damascus, not only did he persecute Christ’s disciples, Acts 8:1 says “He was among those who approved of his [St. Stephen’s] murder.” St. Stephen, you’ll recall, was the first person to be killed for believing that Christ was the Messiah. Paul was also a man of his times when women and children were believed to have no intrinsic worth in society. Regarding the line about women being silent in church, I’ll point out that earlier on he was driven out of a synagogue by women, so I see that statement as a reaction.
Nowadays, I have great respect and honor for the man whose grasp of language and poetry have reached so many people. Without him, Christianity would have had a much harder time growing and reaching people. Then again, I suspect this was planned from the beginning. Nevertheless, when I have Paul and Christ in opposition, I will go with the words of Christ Himself as recorded in the Gospels. Paul was, in my opinion, a religious fanatic, both before and after his conversion. He approached matters of faith with tremendous passion and zeal, and he did wonderful things with them. Nevertheless, being mortal, he had blind spots, and he could be hurt and betrayed and act out of hurt. Christ, while He could be hurt, would not act solely out of hurt, although I’ll admit to seeing a certain amount of hurt and anger when he overthrows the sellers in the temple. Paul was also caught up in the predjudices of his time. Christ transcended them. If Paul told women to be silent in church, Christ told Mary that Martha was doing the right thing when she sat at His feet with the disciples, drinking in His teachings rather than bustling about in the back preparing a meal and doing the dishes.
CJ
cjhoworth, I agree totally with you. I know a lot of the words are not corrent. Sin was originally a miss, in archery, and hell was the garbage dump.
Some of Paul’s letters are in doubt. There are researchers who feel some are forgeries. I am not knowledgable enough to comment on that, but it does seem very strange he would write the love chapter in one place and condemn people in another.
Thank you for your help, and I would very much like to hear about your friend’s negative NDE. Perhaps you could post it on my message board when time permits.
http://www.ndeweb.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi
Love
Leroy
Sighhh…you just plain don’t understand it. Lekatt. No point in my continuing , in this thread anyway, to try and point out teachings from the word of God that are obvious to millions of Christians around the globe. Your near death experience and any subsequent spiritual experiences and feelings has set your mind in granite and you refuse to pay heed to what is plainly there in Scripture. I’m too weary to point them out again. You had an experience, you spoke with a spiritual being, you had fantastic feelings given to you. You’ve made a choice to believe what you were told, never mind that it doesn’t and never will line up with the word of God. Such is the nature of deception, it comes in lovely beautiful packages and is a delight to behold and joyous to open and partake, but underneath is the malice and lies you can’t see because of being dazzled by all the wonderful feelings and experiences. In the end, you’ve listened to the angel of light from 2 Cor 11:14. He’s definitely very very skillful in the deception business. He’s been at it a long time. If you want to stick with the God of the Bible, I suggest you read all of it, not just the love verses that support your belief. I’ve read too much in the Bible that contradicts your beliefs , so it’s impossible for me to ever agree with you. Plain and simple. Anyway, that’s that. I probably should bow out of this particular thread. Everyone knows my position on this, all they have to do is read my posts. I’m sure you’re a wonderfully nice and loving man. My concern and prayers for you remain.
Love in Christ, His4ever