Vanilla: Oh? I can point you to a passage in Ecclesiasticus that says that almsgiving is the way to salvation. According to the Psalms, the Lord God is the way to salvation. Did they suddenly become unChristian?
I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that His atonement is the way to my salvation. I believe in the mercy of the Lord God and don’t want to place stumbling blocks in the paths of my fellow men. And I don’t believe in the Bible, not in the sense that it is the sole means of knowing one’s salvation – anyone who believes that is verging on substituting the Bible for God, engaging in idol-worship of a Leatherbound God with ribbons and gold-edged pages.
That’s what I seem to be having a difficult time saying in a way that comes across as non-condemnatory: that it’s possible to hold the Bible in such esteem that it takes a place that only God should hold in one’s life.
And that is exactly the problem people have with fundamentalism and Bibliocentric Christianity – because for the God-centered and people-focused teachings of Jesus, it substitutes assurance in a set of dogmas based on words in a Book. Didja see where His4Ever was talking about good works earlier? Jesus said that at the Judgment we will be separated into sheep and goats based on how well we did unto “the least of these” – which He would count as being done unto Him.
That doesn’t mean don’t have faith. It doesn’t mean don’t believe in Jesus. It doesn’t mean don’t read and study and learn from the Bible. It doesn’t mean doing good works and only that will lead to salvation.
It means if you believe in Him, you do what He said. And never mind what the 13th chapter of Jeremiah or the second chapter of Habakkuk had to say – follow Jesus.
To Lekatt: I do go to church because I love it not because I force myself to because I think I must. I love the singing of praises to Jesus and fellowshipping and praying with and for other believers. I will say that by going to church, I’m obeying His word which says not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together. I have wanted to and desired to go every since I accepted Christ as my Saviour. I don’t worship the Bible, I worship the God of the Bible and I happen to believe that it’s His word that’s all. If it says somethings wrong, it’s wrong. If it says something is right, it’s right. If it puts forth a specific plan of salvation for everyone (and it does) then I happen to believe it. Many or most Christians take it as His word and the final authority on any matter, including the afterlife. The reason that it’s authenticity and reliability is constantly attacked is because satan knows it’s God’s word and he’ll do whatever possible to refute it and confuse people about it. He hates the word. Jesus defeated satan’s temptations of Himself in the wilderness with the Scriptures. Notice that satan tried to use the Scriptures to tempt Jesus but it didn’t work.
I guess each person has to make up their own mind as to the reliability and accuracy of the Scriptures and whether or not to beleive what it says about God’s holiness, our sinfullness, and His plan of redemption. I’ve chosen to believe it.
Nice to see you back on line, His4Ever. The friend with the hot tub I mentioned in my last post is a former fundamentalist. He’s one of our lurkers, but I’ve told him about you (and many others – Polycarp, I’m pretty sure he sends a tip of the hat your way). I was talking with him about this thread and he tossed out something he believed for a while which might make an interesting addition to the discussion. I’ll put it in a separate paragraph to make it clearer.
Salvation is guaranteed to all who have accepted Christ as their Saviour. The judgement referred to in Scripture, including by Christ Himself, is for those who have not done so. There is scriptural basis for it, and it is an interesting take on the whole issue of judgement.
I don’t have scriptural cites on hand, but trust me, this fellow still knows scripture better than I do. Polycarp, if you think you’ve been bad about citing scripture to get me out of a funk, believe me, you’ve got nothing on this fellow!
Anyway, here’s one more theory for us to play with.
I’m not a Christian, but I was raised as one, and therefore have a relative understanding of the general relgion. I’m a Buddhist now, and through experience have found that salvation is not found through what others preach, but through yourself and what you believe. To many Christians, the Bible isn’t necessarily true to the every word, since it is an interpretation of events occuring long ago, and therefore is not to be taken either lightly or too seriously. Perhaps your problem is not solvable by others, but one you must deicde for yourself. Personally, I believe you cannot be saved from someone else, or that just because you don’t believe in the same things as someone else makes you bad, or evil. If I remember right, as a young Christian I was taught to accept everyone as they are, and that forgiveness is a good thing, and judgement is not to be made by those of us who do not know what we are judging, or even why we judge others so callusely.
Wow, I haven’t been on the boards for a while and ouch, did I raise a discussion or what? I’ve just spent the better part of an hour reading through all the posts. Many, many thanks to everyone that has posted their point of view. I now have huge amounts to think long and hard about.
I’m not sure that I take any one answer at face value, but I certainly have a huge wad of research to keep me busy.
Merrin, I’m glad we could be of help or something like it. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who considers it my pleasure.
His4Ever, Polycarp got it mostly right. The kids who were so cruel were strong and sure in their Christianity, and would have been insulted if you told them they weren’t true Christians. I wasn’t quite foolish enough to accuse them of not being Christians (although I wonder how I managed to miss that one;)). Instead, I wondered how they could be Christian, yet cruel.
Bottom line: it is not, nor will it ever be my place to determine who is or is not saved. That is reserved to the Trinity alone, and I will not usurp it.
If you love Jesus, you will follow His commandments. That means you will not judge others. You will not tell them they are going to be tortured and killed by God. You will help them, love them, accept them, as God does, as they are.
Fear is a mighty motivator, it is not easy to escape its clutches. Only the courageous win over fear. Those willing to go outside the box and learn what others believe. If you are not reading material other than from your group, you are not growing. You can read any material with or without believing it, maybe just not judging it at all.
In order to find peace, love, self confidence, you must look within yourself and not to what others say. Jesus said “the Kingdom of God is within you.” So it is, there you will find love.
H4e, you did clarify things quite a bit, but I do have one more question. Namely, is there anything missing in salvation (in your opinion, I’m sure we could get into many different opinions) which isn’t outlined in the Bible? If one has believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus for sins, repented of those sins and asked Jesus to come into their hearts, what more is there? I always thought that that was pretty much it, but people keep telling me I’m not saved.
So, what else is there?
PS: Merrin, I wouldn’t even recommend taking any idea at face value. Enjoy the research!
PPS: cjhoworth, maybe people should doubt each other’s salvation. Maybe I’ve missed something in this salvation thing, and also those who are said not to be saved.
I’m always awed by the “coincidence” that the appointed lectionaries for a given Sunday seem to have something to say that is pertinent to what’s been going on in our discussions online. So, this Sunday’s Old Testament lesson, Isaiah 45:1-7…
The portions of Isaiah from chapters 40 to 55, dealing as they do with the redemption not only of the Israelites but the whole world through God’s servant who comes in humility and suffers for the sake of others, always have power to speak volumes to me as well as to those whose view of God’s salvific work is exclusivist. But this one is truly shocking.
Cyrus was the King of Persis, a small territory in the Kingdom of Media, a tributary subking to the King of the Medes. During a period of transition when there was no stable, strong monarch, he revolted and took over all of Media, and then extended his dominions across most of the Middle East, his successors finishing the job over the next 50 years or so. But this is only preliminary to what he did – there had been other conquerors before and after. Cyrus was the first true emperor, the monarch over not only his own people and the lands they held in subjection, but recognized and honored by his subjects of other nationalities, whose customs he recognized and honored. This is so common an idea today that we fail to recognize how revolutionary it was at the time.
Now Isaiah (or Second Isaiah, there being a scholarly consensus that the chapters in question were written by another belonging to the “school of Isaiah” – those who followed his prophetic lead – during the Exile and immediately after) does two things in this passage that are highly relevant to where we’re at. First, through his prophetic voice, God calls Cyrus “his anointed.” That’s not particularly startling to us, but that term is “Mashiakh,” or in Greek “Christos” – the title reserved by the Jews for the anointed king of the line of David, and hence adopted by Christians as the principal title of Jesus, heir to the promises made to David and our Savior and Lord. Isaiah is giving this title to a foreign conqueror! Why? Because he is God’s chosen to restore the Jews to their homeland and to carry out His will in the world. And he is God’s agent, His chosen, although he (Cyrus) does not know Him.
I think there’s a lot to be learned from this passage – and one of the principal messages I get is that it’s not for me to know how, or through whom, God is going to get His Will done – He will work through whatever means He chooses. He did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him should be saved. I believe that promise, and I don’t believe that it suggests that the only way that the world is going to get saved through Him is by attending an altar call. He might, for example, be working through the grandson of a famous plutocrat whose life experiences lead him to speak out against the injustice being perpetrated in Christ’s name in the world today – and my I am convinced that precisely that will happen in the near future. You may, if you like, consider this a bit of predictive prophecy.
And what lekatt had to say is core to that message:
Anyone who portrays God as vengeful and inclined to hate sinners is IMHO preaching a false gospel. That He is grieved by humanity’s sin against its fellow men and women is perfectly true, and His justice will prevail. But His justice is merciful and loving, as befits One who portrayed Himself as loving Father, One who came among us in humility to suffer and die for us, One who is always faithful to guide us, comfort us in our sorrows, and strengthen us to do the right thing.
As far as salvation is concerned, there’s nothing more to do than to accept the gift that God has provided through Christ. But we don’t stop there. If Jesus is in the heart, there should be some kind of desire to live for Him. We’re not supposed to just get saved and do nothing for Him. The Lord sent His disciples out to tell people about Him. That’s what we’re supposed to do is share the gospel (the good news that Jesus died for our sins and by believing in Him we have eternal life). We read the word, fellowship with other believers, pray and ask for His guidance. Love people. I’m not an expert on the Christian life nor can I give you an exact formula for the living of the Chrisitian life. It probably isn’t going to be exactly the same for every Christian. Each of us has differing gifts and talents to use in the Lord’s service. I still haven’t figured out what mine is! But as far as salvation is concerned, acceptance of Christ as Saviour, believing in the heart that He died for us and rose again is all that’s required. This is more than just a mental belief that says, “yeah, ok, I believe in God and Jesus died for our sins” and just going on doing whatever you want and forgetting about it. That’s the way I was before I was really saved years later.
I’m not really sure what you mean by “is there anything missing that’s not outlined in the Bible”. I consider the Bible to be the final authority on it myself, others don’t share this belief. I"m curious. If you’ve done what the Bible says to do to be saved, why are people telling you you’re not. What reasons do they give?
If you happen to be referring to me, I never said God hated sinners, I said He hates sin. There’s a little difference there. Evertime we sin, i’ts against HIM not just our fellow man. God is just and he also says that vengeance belongs to Him and no one else. Romans 12:19-20 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it iswritten, VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY, saith the LORD.
I agree that He guides us, comforts us, and strenghens us to do what’s right in His sight. I share the gospel that’s in the Bible, it’s not false though you’re privileged to think so if you want. The gospel of Christ is more than just following His teachings as Lekatt and others believe such as Betty Eadie. She had a near death experience also and also preaches the doctrine of universal redemption as does Lekatt. She has her own website and says right on there when she quotes the Scripture John 14:6 that says I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me, that she’s talking about Jesus’ teachings, NOT Jesus Himself being the Way. I consider this to be a false gospel, nothing personal against them, I just can’t agree with them. And before someone misquotes me again, I don’t desire that people go to hell and suffer, it’s simply the teaching of Scripture that it’s going to happen to some, those who don’t accept the real gospel taught in the Bible, namely that Jesus came, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again and those trusting in Him are saved. You may be sick of hearing it and I’m sorry but this is the true gospel. Of course, I know a lot of people here don’t accept or believe that. That’s their choice.
I care about people, that’s why I’m here. Not for this life only, but what comes after.
If you happen to be referring to me, I never said God hated sinners, I said He hates sin. There’s a little difference there. Evertime we sin, i’ts against HIM not just our fellow man. God is just and he also says that vengeance belongs to Him and no one else. Romans 12:19-20 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it iswritten, VENGEANCE IS MINE; I WILL REPAY, saith the LORD.
I agree that He guides us, comforts us, and strenghens us to do what’s right in His sight. I share the gospel that’s in the Bible, it’s not false though you’re privileged to think so if you want. The gospel of Christ is more than just following His teachings as Lekatt and others believe such as Betty Eadie. She had a near death experience also and also preaches the doctrine of universal redemption as does Lekatt. She has her own website and says right on there when she quotes the Scripture John 14:6 that says I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me, that she’s talking about Jesus’ teachings, NOT Jesus Himself being the Way. I consider this to be a false gospel, nothing personal against them, I just can’t agree with them. And before someone misquotes me again, I don’t desire that people go to hell and suffer, it’s simply the teaching of Scripture that it’s going to happen to some, those who don’t accept the real gospel taught in the Bible, namely that Jesus came, died on the cross for our sins, and rose again and those trusting in Him are saved. You may be sick of hearing it and I’m sorry but this is the true gospel. Of course, I know a lot of people here don’t accept or believe that. That’s their choice.
I care about people, that’s why I’m here. Not for this life only, but what comes after.
No, us fundamentalists believe that the Bible is God’s only word, it was written by men, but it was inspired by God.
In ohter words, theres nothing in it that He didn’t want in it.
I don’t worship the Bible, but the Bible tells me all I need to know about God and salvation.
But to suggest that God chooses to put sinners in either the shallow or the deep end of the lake of fire implies that God is vengeful; You didn’t hear the gospel in your lifetime, sorry, you’re going to burn, but it’t not your fault, so we’ll just gently sauteee you, You heard the gospel and rejected it (or busied yourself doing things that Phelps and Falwell obsess over)? Oh, in that case, we’re gonna dip you in napalm and throw you in the lava pool.
All things are inspired by God, after all He created it all.
If there is nothing in it God didn’t want there, why do fundamentals refuse to obey it.
God said to not judge others, He said that He would do the judging. Why do fundamentals go around telling people they are going to hell. Isn’t that God’s job. It is really none of anyone’s business what my relationship to God might be.
Your portray a God of anger, revenge, and many other traits that make Him look like just anyone else living here on earth.
You ignore the teachings of Jesus, love one another, et all.
You put yourselves up as being the only ones that are going to heaven. Sorry, but you need to read the Bible for a change, instead of hopping around finding verses that suit you. That you can teach fear with.
God is universal, unconditional love, He created the whole world and every single person in it. He loves them all and wants them to be full of happiness and joy. He does not hurt his children. He does not despise them. Only one who hates can torture and kill. That is not a description of God.
Polycarp is correct, you are false prophets, the fruit you bear is not love, but fear.
When did I ever preach fear?
Can you find me a cite?
All I’ve ever told people (only when they asked) is that God loved us enough to send His son to die for our sins.
Doesn’t sound like a fear doctrine to me, or maybe I’m just not fundmentalist enough.
Vanilla and His4Ever, please don’t think that I’m accusing you of “preaching a false Gospel.” His4Ever, I read what you said, and I didn’t say that you were one of those people who believe that God hates sinners.
What I’m trying to get across here, and hope that I can without offending either of you, is that whenever you say anything, people will infer ancillary beliefs that you haven’t said. You may have seen the go-round that gobear, Joe Cool, and I had recently on precisely that point.
I hate sin. That much is true. But, like you, I’m honor-bound not to hate sinners but to love them. I see in His4Ever the same effort to do that that I try to espouse for myself and have seen for a long time in Vanilla.
However, in what you teach and particularly in the way you teach it, it’s very important to be aware that your listeners or readers are not operating in a vacuum. To revert to the classic example here, when you quoted the Bible on homosexuality, there was not a person reading that thread who wasn’t aware of Fred Phelps and his campaign of hatred, and the offensive and unChristian things that Jerry Falwell has had to say on the subject. And they brought that knowledge to what you said. There ain’t no doubt in my mind, or anybody else’s either, that you quoted the Bible accurately. But by simply doing so and not making an effort to relate what you said to the people you were saying it to, you allowed them to bring to their reading of your post what Fred and Jerry had done with it.
That’s not what you said. It’s not what you meant. But it was inevitable, in the world we live in, that they’d hear exactly that. And as a result, every gay man and woman on this board (and a fair number of the rest of us who count them as dear friends) saw what you said, not as witnessing to the truth of the Bible, but as using it to condemn them. You didn’t mean that – but because others have done that, that’s what they heard.
It’s like telling a ten year old boy without a father who has just lost his mother in a car accident that it was “God’s will” that she be killed. Maybe in some philosophical sense there is truth in that statement – but what he knows is that the one person who loved him unreservedly has been taken away from him, and he’s left alone. If you want him to grow up hating God, you’ve found exactly the right words to make him do so – because obviously what happened, as told him by an adult who knows all this stuff, is that God chose to take her away. In his grief and loss, he needs someone to blame – and you’ve just told him Who to blame.
What I’m saying is that, no doubt, there is truth in the evangelical approach to the Gospel, but:
Like everything else that humans say and think and do, it’s incomplete; it doesn’t give the full story.
And it’s not the effective way to witness for God in this particular environment, to the group of people here.
And the job we were given by God is not to mouth a particular set of lines, like He’d hired us as telemarketers and given us a script, but rather to lead people to know and love Him.
That, bottom line, is the key point.
There is one person on this planet whose sins I feel competent to judge – and he looks at me in the mirror each morning. It’s the job of the Holy Spirit to decide when and how to convict people of their sins and cause them to repent of them – once He gets the opportunity. It’s our job to lead people to God, to give him that opportunity. It’s not our job to identify to them what their sins are – unless they happen to ask us, after conversion, for advice.
It upsets me when I see someone witnessing in a way that, from my experience here, I know is going to be counterproductive to their goal in doing so. And, as Vanilla will tell you, there have been a lot of people who have breezed through, done what we’ve ended up referring to as a “drive-by witness,” and left feeling satisfied with themselves that they’ve “spread the Gospel to them heathens, but they wouldn’t listen.”
Because I see you as very sincere in what you’re trying to do here, and showing the fruits of the Spirit in your posts, I’m trying to suggest – never that you should preach a false Gospel nor that the Gospel you’re preaching is false – but that the approach to witnessing here needs to be different from that used at a Rescue Mission.
Because Vanilla had it in one:
That, and He told each of us to love the rest of us too. If you love them, take the time to understand them, and speak to them as sister and friend.
To build another parallel, I assume that you have a healthy normal marital relationship, and am certainly not myself judging that. But suppose someone who is hot for the idea of chastity were to address your relationship with your husband in approximately these terms:
Real weirdo, huh? (Though there are people who think like that…)
But, as Nathan said to David, thou art that man. The feelings you no doubt had about the sort of condemnation that hypothetical guy heaped on you for your healthy married life, is exactly what gobear and Mr Visible must have felt about having their sexuality called “an abomination.”
What I’m suggesting is that you befriend them, show them Christian love on the board, try to understand what their feelings are and why they have them, what their capabilities and limitations in dealing morally with their feelings might be – and then and only then, if you feel it necessary, can you speak to the Biblical witness on any given topic that affects them and not you yourself, and have it heard and understood.
I’m not watering down God’s justice or His wrath. I’m saying that it takes place in a context of a world in which sin has entered but that was created and called good by Him and where His love makes perfect justice in mercy, in extravagant love for those who had no idea what He was doing for them.
This is the Good News: that God loves us enough to give Himself up to death in our stead. And that He calls us to love each other with that profligate love.
If you can show that love to gobear and make him feel it, make it clear how genuine it is, then you can call him the Abominable Gayman, and you’ll both be able to laugh over it. But if you just quote Scripture at him without any attempt to engage him as a person, the result is that you seem to be standing in judgment and condemnation over him. With the result being the Pit thread you recently were the guest of honor in.
Abominable Gayman-sorry, but that sounds like a new screenname. It’s kinda funny, actually!
Sorry, sorry!
Here’s another thing-I’m going to assume, that most of the people on this board who are gay/bi have indeed heard numerous times what the Bible has to say about that. So why keep repeating it?
I wonder if the ancient Inca felt the way fundamentals do when they threw the young virgins into the volcanos to die so they may be spared the wrath of their God.
No one needed to die to achieve God’s forgiveness.
Jesus was executed for teaching love. He said “forgive them father for they know not what they do.” He sent His love to those that hated and murdered Him.
He asks us to do the same.
God is unconditional Love.
