I will say, that I don’t believe in Hell-at least, not as it is presented by literalists. To me, Hell is on earth-reincarnation.
Or it’s something temporary, like Purgatory.
I don’t believe God can be confined to our definitions. I don’t believe ANY of us can truly know the real nature of God.
Well, I must humbly say at this point I can’t think of anything else to say that would convince Jim. Once can’t force another to believe. How would one convince Jim that there was a God and the Bible was His word? We as Christians aren’t responsible, I don’t think for making someone believe. We’re responsible to share the message and leave it with the Lord. Don’t really know what else I can say.
I think we must applaud your honesty; again, I hope I have not been too pushy, but I feel it is quite an important point that the very thing that keeps you ‘in’ your faith is the same thing that keeps Jim ‘out’ - this isn’t a criticism, just an (I think interesting) observation;
For you, the Bible supports your belief in God, which in turn leads you back to the Bible - quite a self-consistent and self-sustaining position.
For Jim, on the other hand, it seems that there is nowhere for him to start from; he can’t make himself believe the Bible because he doubts the existence of it’s purported author and he can’t make himself believe in God because the Bible doesn’t compel him to do so.
But you’re right, God, assuming he exists (and personally, I firmly believe he does) would be quite capable of touching hearts; there is only so much (and perhaps not even that) that can be achieved by argument/debate/discussion.
To Polycarp: I couldn’t get the parts of your message I wanted in the quote thingie but I just wanted to say that I appreciate the time and effort you take in your posts. Wish I had that much time. By the way, what does irenic mean? 
Anyway just wanted to say thanks. There are some things I’m sure we can agree on and things I know we probably can never agree on. Such as the quote by Madeline (shoot I forgot the last name, was it d’Engle?). Think she may have been quoting someone else. Anyway it was about even Satan someday coming back to God or being saved. No no no not going to happen . Rev 14:11, 20:10. I think forever and ever pretty much means what it says. Also, I know that Jesus is called the Word in the first chapter of John. He is the Living Word, the Bible is the written word.
I, too, am glad we’ve been able to talk without a lot of flaming and name calling, etc. So we don’t agree on everything. If we did, guess there wouldn’t be anything to discuss.
Anyway, have a great evening! Oh, and I do forgive you for any prejudging you may have had about me. I may have a conservative, literal view of the Bible but that sure doesn’t mean I consider myself better than anyone else. Just a saved sinner striving to live for Him and reach others for Christ.
Excellent, and very correct. We must choose, because there is no clear path in the Bible any more than there is in life. We are here to learn for ourselves what is right and what is wrong.
I choose the path of love and light, God is unconditional love, holding us safe and secure at all times.
Those who wish to choose the path of fear and be afraid God will torture and kill them may do so. They spread and preach their fear into the world adding more fear to that which is here.
I choose to bring love, light and joy, I learned that from my near death experience. I felt the love and acceptance totally surround me.
So what will it be, choose fear or choose love. It is impossible to have both. Love dispells fear and fear blocks love. Choose wisely because it will determine your future life and the quality of it.
I choose Love, hands down.
Love
Leroy
I might add most all Near Death Experiencers choose love, even those who had less than positive experiences.
Been there and saw, I choose Love.
Once you try it you will never go back to fear.
Love
Leroy
You mean I chose my parents, location and sex? Man, if I ever meet me I will kick my ass.
Yes, It’s one of those things that at the time you did it, it seemed like a good idea.
:eek:
Forgive your mother. She is brainwashed. I’ve seen it happen over and over again with SOME fundamentalist Christians. They often quote the Scriptures but forget the teachings.
Once, when I did something that my mother thought was against the teachings, she quoted the Scripture about “Man cannot serve both God and mammon.” I asked her what <i>mammon</i> meant, and she had no idea.
If you want to convince someone that Jesus is Lord or just express your devotion, practice the teachings of love and nonjudgment and don’t hit people with so many Bible verses.
Yesterday in a small town nearby, there was a demonstration in support of putting the Ten Commandments up in public buildings. There were a few people with signs that urged tolerance for diversity of beliefs. The demonstration was peaceful until a Christian (wearing a flag jacket and carrying a large flag) took it upon himself to tear up the sign of a person who disagreed with him. Then the Christian shoved the cameraman who had it all on tape. Not only did he poorly represent the teachings of the Christ, but he behaved in an extremely unAmerican (meaning unConstitutional) way by denying the other man freedom of speech and the right to protest peacefully.
I know that you don’t mean to get into a long discussion on this, H4e, but I keep reading this thread and coming back to this point. If there is such a thing as salvation (which I am inclined to believe there is, but many will disagree), how does one know? I’ve frequently heard the mechanics of it (believe that Jesus died as the price for one’s sins, raised again on the third day, confess that you’re a sinner and that you need to be redeemed through the power of Jesus, etc.), but I’m still missing some essential part of it.
Would you want to explain your ideas of how you believe that you know you are saved (probably another thread on that – the nature of salvation or something similar), or is that a topic best left alone?
Well, I guess there’s nothing wrong with talking about it, it’s just that there are so many different opinions and it can get tangled up into a lot of different threads or ideas probably, etc. I hesitate to get something like that started because as you can see there are many differing ideas about salvation, such as Lekatt’s, which I believe to be wrong, no offense to him. What God says about it should be what we listen to, not someone’s experience for experiences can be deceiving. Lekatt believes that God would be cruel to require a sacrifice for sin in order to accept people into heaven. He doesn’t understand God’s total and utter holiness and hatred of sin. He had to find a way to reconcile this with His great love for us. And He did, in the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross. That’s what I call love. Coming here in human flesh and paying the debt so that anyone believing would have eternal life. Such a simple clear beautiful plan that satan will do whatever he can to get people to miss. And you know something, I believe that even if God knew no one would accept His provision, He would have come anyway and died for us. Then no one could ever say the way hadn’t been open for them to come if they chose to.
Mind you, I don’t mean to come off as one who is a know it all about everything, I simply try to say what the Bible says about something. There are a lot of things I’m sure I don’t understand and have much to learn about but I do know what the plan of salvation is. You have it right that Jesus paid the penalty of our sins, was raised the third day and those believing in and accepting Him as Saviour are saved. This is rather ironic but even though I’ve done that and even remember appox. when it happened and the change it introduced into my life, satan still once in awhile tries to get me to doubt my salvation. He goes for our weak points. (Perhaps we could have a thread about him sometime) It usually happens when I feel I’ve failed in a big way or done something wrong. Even after I ask forgiveness according to 1 John 1:9 sometimes the guilt will linger. But I have to keep telling myself that I’ve done what the Lord says to do to be saved, I can remember when it happened. He (satan) likes to get us on a good works/performance treadmill (not that we as Christians shouldn’t do good works) but it isn’t good works that save us. Only faith in Christ saves, the good works and desire to live for Him comes as a result of that.
Here’s some Scriptures I’d like to share:
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God 1 John 5:9-13
Once again, this post has gotten longer than I intended. But I hope I’ve clarified things a bit. If not, I tried.
I want to say that I did or do not choose the path of fear, nor am I afraid of God, because I’ve done what He says to do do be saved. I simply choose what God’s word says on the subject, period. Something you may never understand. Once again your statement of “I learned that from my near death experience” shows where you’re putting your trust. And you say you “felt the love and acceptance”. You’re trusting your eternal destiny to experiences and feelings?? I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that if you’ve never accepted and trusted in Christ as Saviour, these so called “feelings” you experiences are an elaborate deception. He’s (satan) got you hooked and firmly seated in a false gospel and also has you speading it far and wide to other people so they can be deceived also. That’s his way. You present a one-sided view of God and not His whole nature.
And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 12:4-5 This is Jesus Himself speaking
Also Mark 9:43-48
Jesus Himself knew there was a hell and that people would be cast into it. You’ve been blinded by the light of your near death experience just as many others have. Where does this light come from? For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; who end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians11:13-15
I realize that nothing I say is going to move you in the least. But I will refute you saying that I choose to spread fear and hate and try to make people afraid of God. This is NOT true. I simply believe that God’s word is the authority for the afterlife, not an experience or a feeling. And what the Bible says about it contradicts what you say about it, period. So please no more accusations of speading hate and fear when all I’m doing is sharing the plan of salvation God has outlined in His word. If you disagree with that plan, that’s your privilege but you’ll never be able to say that nobody told you.
And you’re trusting your eternal destiny to what some ancient manuscript says-a manuscript which is a collection of many many authors, that has been revised and reinterpreted and translated and is so old we aren’t truly SURE who the original authors were, or what they had in mind.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but think about this-why is your proof anymore valid than lekatt’s? Or the Catholic’s? Or the Orthodox Jew’s?
Or Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim?
There’s really nothing I can say to your remarks. You can make that statement in regard to anyone’s beliefs and keep questioning and discussing but you could die tomorrow or today for that matter and then what? Perhaps you need to do a study for the evidence of the truth and accuracy of the Bible like Lee Strobel did. Perhaps it would be helpful to read His book The Case for Christ and see what he did and maybe you could come up with some ideas of your own. I can’t prove to you the Bible is God’s true word. If you don’t believe it then you don’t believe it. The devil has, IMHO, has played the old “if you can’t beat em, join em” routine and created so many religions and beliefs so that people will be confused and spend their time debating over which is right. He’s been very successful with this tactic. The God I believe in was and is able to see that His word is preserved for us and I believe that we have it today. I guess you’ll have to study and examine and make up your own mind. My prayers are with you. Gotta go, baby shower.
You know, I’ve heard this all my life, and I just realized that the statement, as is, is false. What it should say is “[…] there is none other name under heaven given [by the New Testament] […].”
To assert that it is absolutely true, as is, is to betray one’s ignorance of other religions which actually do postulate another name for salvation.
You know, I’ve heard this all my life, and I just realized that the statement, as is, is false. What it should say is “[…] there is none other name under heaven given [by the New Testament] […].”
To assert that it is absolutely true, as is, is to betray one’s ignorance of other religions which actually do postulate another name for salvation.
You know, I’ve heard this all my life, and I just realized that the statement, as is, is false. What it should say is “[…] there is none other name under heaven given [by the New Testament] […].”
To assert that it is absolutely true, as is, is to betray one’s ignorance of other religions which actually do postulate another name for salvation.
Whoops. Sorry about the triple post. Any mod: feel free to delete the extra two.
If one is a christian, then they do believe that the Bible is correct in saying Jesus is the only way and name to salvation.
If not, then they are not christian religions; religions, yes, not chrsitian.
If you squeeze are orange, it’s a sure thing you will get orange juice. But if you squeeze a person, no telling what you will get.
However, you will get what is inside them. If they are full of fear, that fear will surface, if they are full of love, then that is what will surface.
His4Ever told us about why she chose the path she’s on. Her grandmother talked to her about it and she was having dreams about whether she was really saved or not. She chose the path from fear of not being saved, as do most that follow that teaching.
I am not unfamilar with what she is saying. I was raised in a fundamental church. Everything went ok until I was about seven years old. That’s when you had to go to “big church.” There’s where the hellfire and damnation was preached. I had nightmares about being “saved” and would often wake up screaming in the night. I rededicated myself at every service because I didn’t feel saved. The pastor finally allowed me not to go to “big Church.”
I never really believed, because of all the contradictions in what they preached, and as soon as I could, I left that kind of church forever. I went to a Unitarian Church that had a large library on religion, bible history, comparative religion, and such. It was great, after three or four years of steady reading I began to understand the nature of theology well enough to lose a lot of the fear.
During my NDE, I lost all fear of death, that is one of the characteristics of near death experiences.
As I grew older, I found I was not the only one scared by religion. There are support groups, counselors and psychiatrists who work with those who crashed and burned on fundamental religion.
Jesus said: “By their fruits ye shall know them.”
I will always teach God is unconditional love, because that is true.
Yes, his4ever, I experienced it, first hand, eye-witness. But I also know that it is logical, real, and honest.
My suggestion is: if you are going to church because you feel you have to, because you feel you need to, or because you fear God and death. Please consider doing some serious reading into Bible history, church history and comparative religions.
You should be going to church because it helps you grow spiritually, you enjoy it, it gives you an opportunity to serve others.
Love
Leroy
I am not now associated with any religious organization.