Thanks for the replies, CJ. 
I’m still not sure I totally understand what your beliefs are but that’s alright. I’m sure there are things we still disagree on and some things that we do agree on. I must be true to what I believe the Lord as revealed to me as truth just as you probably feel you must be true to what you believe is truth. I try not to condemn anyone, just share what the Word says about wrong things. It’s up to God to judge the person. I hope you’re feeling better.
Yes, and God does not judge anyone. Jesus said “I judge no man.” Jesus says to “judge not, lest we be judged, for by whatever means we judge, we shall be judged.” Jesus said “if you have seen me, you have seen the father.”
Why is it that the words of Jesus mean so little to you, His4Ever.
Jesus said to " clear the beam out of thine own eye, before you try to clear the mote out of your brothers eye."
Jesus said to “forgive seventy times seven, to love those that hate you and despitefully use you.”
You claim to be Christian? What about Jesus the Christ and His teachings.
God is unconditional love. He loves all His children equally, there are no favorites. He never judges or punishes. He only Loves.
When we need help He is there to love us and help us, always.
The heathen is still hoping for the Rapture…
maybe then this debate will end
(and we left behinds can have the place to ourselves )
Originally posted by His4Ever:
Heh. You’ve never left your e-Bible at home, if you have internet access. Check out Blueletterbible.org. It’s basically amazing.
If you believe this to be true, then how would you interperet this pasage, and others like it:
So he does - in John 8:15! I never knew that - you learn things everyday! Strangely enough, if you read on to the next chapter, he also says:
John 9:39
Perhaps you could comment on that statement?
This question cuts both ways my friend - it seems to me that you choose to ignore the passages of scripture that speak of condemnation and judgement and emphasise those that speak of love and forgiveness. To be sure, His4Ever tends toward the other extreme, but surely what we need to be doing is trying to understand how these two extremes can be held in tension, as Jesus seemed to be able to do…
Grim [sub](a work in progress)[/sub]
I think Lekatt was trying to demonstrate that The Great Source of Quotes can be used to contradict any quotes from that same source.
You just confirmed him in that
The only reason I tend to put forth the judgement/condemnation part more is precisely because Lekatt and others never seem to include it. They only talk about love, no comdemnation or judgement for anyone ever for anything, etc. I know that’s wrong so I feel I must refute them. God is love and He is also judge, plain and simple. He’s lovingly given us a plan of salvation, praise His name. We can accept it and be saved, or not accept it and be lost. You can’t emphasize part of God’s nature and ignore the other parts. Love, holiness,judgement, wrath are all parts of God’s character. To me, it’s very tragic that Lekatt is telling people that salvation is their birthright and that they are safe and need to do nothing, be nothing, believe nothing. He’s leading them down a false path with a false gospel and will answer for it whether he believes that or not. I just cringe as I said before whenever I hear him say that God will never punish anyone for anything. It’s not true and a reading of the Scriptures proves it’s not true IMHO.
Thanks masonite. There’s a place at Crosswalk.com that you can do the same thing. But I’d have to leave the board to go look up the Scripture I want and it’s simpler to just use my e Bible. I don’t know how to open 2 windows at once. If I try to hide the SD board window it goes back out to where you first come in where the wallpaper and icons are. Just can’t figure out a way to do it.
Assuming you’re using some version of MS Windows 95+, you can get two windows on the screen at once by clicking the middle of the three buttons in the top left corner; it should change to a box with a dark bar at the top and the border of the window is now resizable, so you can click and drag it to the size you want; do this with the other window (you can also click and drag the blue title bar to move the windows about) and you should either be able to put them alongside each other or switch between the two by pressing <alt><tab>.
Another good online Bible can be found at www.Gospelcom.net
I love the teachings of Jesus just fine and His word mean plenty to me. Jesus spoke on more that just love. You present an unbalanced picture of God, Lekatt. Check out Matthew 5:22, 5:29, 11:23, 16:18, 18:9, Luke 16:23. There are probably more, I took this from a concordance in back of a Bible. Jesus wouldn’t have made these statements if there was no chance of anyone going to hell. I never said He didn’t love everyone. But you are wrong about God never judging. It’s in the Scripture friend, continue to ignore it but it’s there. Acts 10:42, 2 Timothy 4:8, Hebrews 12:23, Matthew 5:21, John 16:8, Romans 14:10, Hebrews 9:27. These also come from the concordance. If I had more time I know I could do a better job. Suffice it to say that you are wrong when you say God will never judge, the Book proves otherwise and you have blinders on and refuse to see it.
Answer the question that was put forth in another post about the sheep and the goats. My friend, I’m still praying for you. When you stand before the Lord and know your error and realize all the people you’ve led down the wrong path, you will be heartbroken. I keep wondering what you do with all the verses in the Bible that talk about God’s holiness, hate of sin, judgement, wratth, and hell. Do you mark them out of your Bible with a black marker or cut them out? I’ve said it before I’ll say it over and over again. You’ve been deceived by your NDE and lying spirits. The truth of God’s word will prevail in the end.
But, His4Ever, the reason Pelagius is considered a heretic is because of his belief that we do need to do something to gain salvation. The reason I do not judge people in the name of God on this board or anywhere else is because I consider it immoral to do so.
Here’s the paradox I grew up with which is probably responsible for my views. My best friend and I got bullied pretty relentlessly in school to the point where she had a nervous breakdown between our sophomore and junior years and I suffer from clinical depression to this day. The kids doing the bullying were in many cases members of their church’s youth groups. My friend even got picked on in church. These kids were, to all appearances, good Christians. They had certainly accepted Christ as their Saviour and were proclaiming their faith, if only by belonging to their church. They called me every name in the book and made my life a living hell. Now, I was also a good Christian. We didn’t always have a youth group since there weren’t that many of us Piscy’s in town, but I served on the alter, and even got a Bishop’s medal. Here’s the paradox: the kids who were so cruel that they broke my friend’s spirit and nearly broke mine are, it was made quite clear to me, “getting into heaven”, saved, or whatever you want to call it because they’re good, active Christians.
You speak of judgement and wrath. Do you honestly think I didn’t pray for God to show His wrath after another day of ridicule? Do you honestly think I didn’t pray for Him to invoke His judgement after someone came up to me yet again and told me she saw my best friend crying in class because this other person didn’t dare comfort her lest they be ridiculed as well? The answer I got is, “It’s not for you to judge.” His ways are not mine, and that’s a good thing because I have a lot more trust in His ways.
Once again, you’re accusing others (and me?) of being deceived. I’m willing to agree that any one of us on this board might indeed be deceived, and we might all be in for a shock and find out the Ultimate Reality of the universe might indeed be The Invisible Pink Unicorn of Straight Dope fame (no offense meant, Jodi). I’m willing to take that chance and believe in a God who does judge, but mercifully, and in full awareness of the limitations of our mortal bodies and immortal souls. After all, He’s been here.
If I get tossed into a lake of hot lava after a lifetime of toil for over-emphasizing the love, to be it. For right now though, I’ve got plans which involve climbing into a hot tub of water after a day of toil! 
CJ
I beleive now would be the time that Jim would ask; “if there’s so much riding on this decision to trust God and accept Jesus as my personal saviour, why is it so hard to tell that this is the correct path? When I look at all the other things that other religions say, there doesn’t seem to be any significant difference - how can I tell that Christianity is true?”
(I believe this was similar to what Czarcasm meant about the gifts all being wrapped the same).
Difficult question. I guess that I’d probably say one reason for this is that satan (yes, I believe satan exists) wants to make it as confusing as possible because he wants to keep people from truth. He doesn’t want us to be saved, since he himself is lost forever. I don’t think I can agree that all religions are basically the same, at least IMO. Jesus is the one who was crucified, died, and rose again. His tomb is empty. I think a lot of religions are camoflages that satan used to keep people from the complete truth. They have enough truth in them to be believable, yet there may be subtle errrors. Just my opinion, not trying to insult anyone. God has given us His word, we can see His work in creation so the Bible says we are without excuse if we don’t believe. Perhaps Jim should do what Lee Strobel did. He was an atheist and decided to examine the evidence. As a result, he’s a Christian today. He wrote the books The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith. Perhaps Jim could read these and come to a closer understanding of whether it’s true or not. Who knows? I can’t convince Him if he’s determined not to be convinced. We’d just keep going round and round. etc.
CJ, I’d have to question whether those kids who bullied you really knew the Lord but it’s not my place really to say. I know as a Christian, I can get grouchy depending on my stress level. But I will say that church going doesn’t make anyone a Christian, just as living in a chicked coop doesn’t make one a chicken. Anyway, I’m sorry for your bad treatment. From one imperfect Christian to another, I do wish that hadn’t happened to you.
Jim wants you to know that he isn’t determined not to be convinced, he’s just not happy to run headlong into something that might be pointless or even wrong.
He is as frustrated as you are about going round and round and he can see that you are completely convinced, but he feels there is a certain self-reinforcing circularity there too; you are convinced there’s a God and therefore happy to trust the Bible, which tells you there is a God, so you believe it.
Jim feels that such a self-reinforcing setup could occur without any firm basis in fact (he’s not insisting that this is the case, but he feels he cannot yet rule out the possibility, particularly as he notes that Christians often seem to insist that the Bible (or parts thereof) is true in spite of what seems to be abundant and weighty evidence to the contrary).
Jim also wonders if Satan (if there is such a creature, he hastens to add) could really be responsible for the overwhelmingly good acts that he(Jim) sees people of non-Christian faiths performing…
I was about to compose a post that says what Mangetout just wrote.
Jim
Just in case anyone thinks that Mangetout’s questions are just useless rhetoric, I just want to chime in to say that there is at least one Jim who is reading along with interest.
cj -
When I was in high school, before I had lost my childhood faith, I was friends with a few people of the Campus Crusade for Christ stripe - not that actual organization, but that kind of Christianity. I was an Episcopalian. Since I was fairly close to a couple of people in this group, I asked once if I could attend one of their Bible study meetings.
I was told, “It’s really for advanced Christians - I don’t think you’d get a lot out of it.”
I am still friends with the woman who said this, but her statement set back my faith by, oh, 20 years or so. Unfortunately I will never be able to forget it. I have never even told her how much that hurt. If I were to tell her now, I’d be ashamed to reveal this 20-year-old resentment. But it’s a very big one and part of me is still just as hurt and angry now as I was then.
Kids can be very very cruel, even the Christian ones. The behavior of Christian kids is often more a function of their kid-hood than their Christianity. St. Paul extolls the virtues of growing up - no idealization of childhood innocence for him. He knew it was a crock.
Boy, this thread is all over the place. Hi to the OP! Made up your mind yet???
I find this extremely sad, to say the least.
The whole thing is, I think YOU are leading others down a false path. I cringe whenever I see you posting stuff, because I think that more people are turning from God because of this fundamentalist movement. I personally think it’s more damaging to Christianity than anything else.
There are a lot of things to be said here, and I thank God and all present that we’re addressing them in an irenic manner, without flamefests.
First, His4Ever, you said:
Well, dear, I love the Bible – it is my most valued guide into what my Lord has to say, and the sole record extant of how He dealt with others, and therefore, taken with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in my life, the one guide I have as to how to live a life befitting one trying to follow Him.
But I’ll refer you to the first chapter of John. The Word of God is what brought everything into being – and what took human form as Jesus of Nazareth. On another board somebody brought up the question of what “the Word of God” is, and this was my answer:
[quote]
…any single short answer is incorrect, like trying to define what God is, exactly, would be.
I began by looking at Genesis 2, where God creates Adam by gathering together the dirt of the earth and breathing His spirit into it/him, and Eve by putting Adam into a deep sleep and removing a rib.
Now, how does God create in Genesis 1? The answer is, He says, “Let there be…” and what He says to complete those commands comes into existence.
John picks up on this, and says, effectively, that God created by His Word.
And then he makes the amazing statement “…And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
He says that the Word of God became a human being in the person of Jesus of Nazareth.
I grant that many [Bible passages quoted in the OP] appear to equate the word of God with the Bible, or with passages from Scripture, or teachings of Jesus (presumably recorded in the Gospels).
But that too is not the fullness of what the word means. To explain this, consider the following:
In the OP [the author of the thread] show[s] two quotes that red-flagged me:
and
Huh?
How can the scribes and Pharisees nullify Jesus or the Bible? How can they make it or Him of no effect?
Lemme suggest a possible sense for this:
There’s a passage that often gets quoted when arguments based on interpretation of Bible passages spring up, about “rightly dividing the word” – I tried to search for it and didn’t come up with the passage.
But the gist of what is meant by it is that the Word of God comes to us through the Bible – when it is read as God intends us to read it. Apropos of this:
Bottom line: Only occasionally does the term “word of God” mean Jesus Christ – but that’s the baseline meaning on which the others depend.
Wonderful as are the things one finds in the Bible, it never served to create the world, it never gave up the fulness of the godhead to become a human baby, it never taught with firmness and compassion, it never died in agony on the cross for our sakes, it never rose from the grave that we might have new and abundant life in Christ.
The term “word of God” sometimes means the Bible, or parts of the Bible – but only in the sense that it conveys His Word to us.
It is easy for anyone to find some half-baked passage and argue something completely in discord with His Will based on it – you’ve seen this, I’m sure, and if you haven’t, I’ll be glad to point you to obnoxious examples.
But for me at least, the Word of God means the words of Scripture as they point to Jesus Christ and his acts of atonement, read in context and in a sensu plenior as guided by the Holy Spirit (in oneself or in those wiser than oneself who follow His guidance).
Regarding the “do it yourself” version of salvation taught by Pelagius, the key point is in Paul:
Whenever anybody quotes this in the context of “good deeds are meaningless, God saves by faith,” I want to puke. The very first line says, and I cannot emphasize this enough, it’s by His grace and nothing that we do. In fact, elsewhere Paul refers to faith as one of God’s “spiritual gifts” to those who follow Him. The one task I see that He calls nonbelievers to is to be open to Him speaking to them when He thinks the time is right, and I know a good dozen self-proclaimed atheists on this board who are doing just that, and to whom He has not yet revealed Himself.
Are they “saved”? From a human perspective, the only honest answer is “not yet.” And from an eternal perspective, the only safe answer is, with no blasphemy, God only knows.
That’s something very important to keep in mind in these discussions. I guarantee that a year or two after Pentecost, if anyone had asked the Eleven who the biggest threat to Christianity among living people was, they would have been unanimous in identifying the leader of the Pharisees opposing them as heretics teaching a false Judaism, one Saul from the city of Tarsus. And I’m sure they would have prayed that God stop him from teaching.
Happens that God had something quite different in mind.
Regarding universal salvation, I don’t believe in it – quite – because I think that He respects the choices of individual people, and for Him to insist on “saving” someone who was dead set on turning away from Him would be to totally negate their free will. And for whatever reasons He may have, He considers that having us choose Him in love out of free will is vitally important.
However, let me add a comment by Madeleine L’Engle:
Grimpixie, this would be my response to your seeking a “balanced” view of God’s nature – what He reveals to us, we see in anthropomorphic terms – as love, wrath, judgment, compassion, and so on. But while the Bible attributes all these characteristics to God, of only one of them does it say that that is what He is: love. And the imagery which Jesus uses, that God is primarily Father and only secondarily judge and the rest, leads me to believe that Ms. L’Engle’s last paragraph is very much on target. What He does, He does from a pure divine love, and only in the context of that love may we see Him as judge, wrathful avenger, and such.
You see, His4Ever, if I know anything about CJ’s posting style, the point she was trying to make was that a lot of people take this “nyah, nyah, I’m saved and good and you’re not” attitude that was forcibly brought home by her accounts of the “Christian” kids persecuting her and her friends. I honor the fact that you are distancing yourself from that behavior – and I wish to submit to you, as a means of enabling you to find forgiveness for those who condemned you here, that they misread your Biblical literalism as another case of that supercilious attitude towards them – and condemned you as yet another Pharisaical pseudo-Christian as a result. I know that I did at first, and I ask your forgiveness for prejudging you like that.
[hijack]
I learned a new word… irenic.
I like it.
Thanks Polycarp.
No. Seriously. It’s a rare thing to learn a new word.
I don’t mean to detract from your elequent post.
[/hijack]