My first GD question, and yes, it's a religious one.

Great Debates
101

This is hard to explain. I feel unworthy but will try. By knowing Him I mean that I’ve invited Him into my heart and that I trust His shed blood to have paid the penalty for my sin. When one is born again the Holy Spirit comes to indwell. Jesus is no longer here physically so He indwells His followers through the Spirit. Remember when Jesus told His disciples to wait in a certain place (Jerusalem, I think??) and wait for Him to send back the Spirit? And then when He ascended up to heaven after so many days a rushing wind came to where the disciples were and tongues of fire were over each person’s head? This is when the Holy Spirit came to indwell those who belonged to Christ, His church. The relationship is hard to describe. I sense His presence at times, not always, but I just know He’s there. The Lord speaks to us through His word mainly and the nudgings of the Holy Spirit in certain situations. He has never spoken audibly to me but I won’t say that He hasn’t to anyone else. I’ve read about Christians who say they’ve head Him clearly speak but not audibly, it was in their minds. I pray and talk to Him and just look for Him to work in my life. I struggle sometimes wondering if He really cares or if He hears me even though I know He does. It can get discouraging when I feel He always answers no but sometimes the answer could be wait. Perhaps I’m not the best person to give you an example of what the relationship is like because I’m a struggler, though I never question His existence nor the fact that Jesus died for me.

Let me give you a little example of a time I think the Lord may have been speaking to me. I used to live in a little house next door to my Aunt and Uncle. They were on the corner. I used to walk around the block at night and when I got back around to our side, I’d cut through the back yard of my A and U’s house to get to mine. It was dark but I never felt unsafe or threatened. I did this several times then one night as I was getting ready to cut through my A and U’s back yard, something stopped me. Something didn’t feel quite right. I thought I could be imagining this or whatever but I decided to play it safe and go around. Was there any danger there? I have no idea, but God knows.

He also helps us understand His word and sometimes certain Scriptures may stand out or speak to a particular situation in our lives. Didn’t mean this to be so long. I have to go. Take care.

102

Hi masonite, glad to meet you. I was wanting to point that out about the word “catholic” in the creed. Thanks for bringing that out. The word catholic means universal. It is indeed speaking of Christ’s church, His bride. Everyone on earth who has believed in His sacrifice for them. It doesn’t refer to the Roman Catholic Church but simply the universal church. I’ve read the creed and can’t see anything that I disagree with, in fact I think we’ve said it in church before. Bye, gotta get off here!!

103

Hi masonite, glad to meet you. I was wanting to point that out about the word “catholic” in the creed. Thanks for bringing that out. The word catholic means universal. It is indeed speaking of Christ’s church, His bride. Everyone on earth who has believed in His sacrifice for them. It doesn’t refer to the Roman Catholic Church but simply the universal church. I’ve read the creed and can’t see anything that I disagree with, in fact I think we’ve said it in church before. Bye, gotta get off here!!

104

—Not saying I don’t believe you on this point, but do you have any sites for it? I’m very curious as to read what a NDE who experiences reincarnation. I mean…Isn’t that like going into the future? If it’s not, what happens to the “new” body when you are jerked back into the old one? Is it left without a soul? —

Lekatt is probably more familiar with what’s out there than I am. I remember reading some accounts of this in a Lit of Englightenment class in High School, so it’s been some time.

A note though: to people who really believe, it isn’t seen as actually entering a new life, but rather nosing around a nexus of possible and future lives. People who believe in reincartation don’t necessary think things are, how shall we say: linear?

105

Apos

I posted this earlier, guess you didn’t see it.
Reincarnation is a choice also. You don’t have to come back, but most do to finish what they started. When you have a NDE you are not “given” a new body. Your true form is no form at all. Just pure energy. Usually it is several years before one decides to return, sometimes hundreds of years. At that point you will plan your new physical life. Choose your parents, location and sex.
Then when the time arrives, enter your new body at birth or slightly before to began the process again. Many have memories of their pre-birth time and there is a web site on the subject.

Yes, there is no time or space or sex in the spiritual world.

Probably should explain here that it is possible in the spirit world to create for yourself a spirit body that looks like the one you just left. This is necessary if you are going to communicate with physical loved ones so they can recognize you. This is sometimes called the astral body. Some are so used to having a body that they keep their astral body most of the time. Any spiritual ghosts, appearances of loved ones, etc., is with the astral body.

106

**Mangetout wrote:

Why should a neutral third-party consider your worldview more valid that that of, say, Lekatt?

Sure, your interpretation of the Bible may be more stringent, but you’re the one insisting this is an important factor; why should anyone reading this not say “you know what, H4E’s viewpoint is more consistent with a literal interpretation, but like Lekatt, I don’t agree with the view that the Bible is an infallible, consistent, wholly divinely-penned document”
?**

This goes for me, too!

H4E, I’m not trying to mock you, but I simply see no reason to believe your interpretation is superior to Lekatt or anyone else’s.

All your explainations seem to boil down to, “well, can’t you guys SEE why this is the way it has to be?”

No, I don’t see that at all. I’m not doubting your belief or its sincerity, but simply see no rational reason to believe that your interpretation is superior to anyone elses. Or that your interpretation is the best interpretation.

I’m sorry, but if you’re trying to win converts, you’re striking out.

107

I can quote as many Bible verses to prove my view is correct as you can, maybe more.

Such is the nature of the Bible. I will never teach scare doctrine.

Jesus saved the prostitude from stonning to death and did not condemn her. Then He said “I judge no man.”

God does not torture and kill His children, never, never.

God is unconditional Love. Period.

108

I can quote as many Bible verses to prove my view is correct as you can, maybe more.

Such is the nature of the Bible. I will never teach scare doctrine.

Jesus saved the prostitude from stonning to death and did not condemn her. Then He said “I judge no man.”

God does not torture and kill His children, never, never.

God is unconditional Love. Period.

109

—Jesus saved the prostitude from stonning to death and did not condemn her.—

But chastized the Pharisees for not stoning to death an unruly child.

It seems we have two very different pictures of Jesus in play here, and both have good Gospel evidence behind them. Does this say something about the reliability of the Gospel? Is there really no contradiction in character? Or is Jesus just pulling everyone’s legs?

110

Apos

Where is this part about stoning a child?

Actually, since Jesus wrote nothing down, that we know of, it is not a sure thing those words attributed to Him are real.

I don’t consider the Bible as the unabridged word of God.
But it is useful to know some of the text, mainly to counter the nay sayers.

I would like for people not to fear their Creator or be intimidated by Him. In my spiritual experience God is Love.

I won’t bore you with what NDEers learn about God from their experiences. It is there for the reading.

There is a book called the “Course in Miracles.”

This book was “given” to an atheist psychologist over a period of about seven years. It started one day when she heard a voice in her head say: “Prepare to take dictation for the Course in Miracles.” Thinking she was going crazy she confided in her boss. Her boss said “let’s take dictation.” and the book was born. It has sold millions of copies and been translated into every major language of the world. The author of the book according to the psychologist was Jesus.

It reads like it was written by Jesus, explaining many of the Biblical sayings. It is hard to read. If anyone buys one, it is best to start at the back of the book on the section “Teachers Manual.”

There are no contridictions in this book and many churches are using it now. Not necessarily recommended that you but it, but it is a confirmation of God is unconditional love.

111

Jim is very grateful for your answers H4E, but without wanting to offend you in any way, feels that an equally plausible explanation for what you have told him so far could be that you have been indoctrinated since birth and that the ‘nudgings’ you now experience could be nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

He would like to reiterate that He isn’t just saying you’re making it all up, but rather that he’s still looking for whatever it is that might confirm you’re not making it all up.

112

(He’d also like to clarify that by ‘making it all up’ he means 'experiencing a self-reinforcing delusion) and would like to say again that he really does not mean to offend in any way.

113

I was going to stay out of this debate, especially since Polycarp has been doing his usual wonderful job, but I came across a reference to the Pelagian heresy which seemed relevant. Disclaimer: while I cannot be Catholic for doctrinal reasons, I do consider its records to be the most accurate description of the first 1400 years of the history of Christianity.

Basically, a Brit named Pelagius formed and spread the belief that human beings can gain salvation by some individual action of their own. This stood in direct contradiction to church doctrine which stated that salvation could only be bestowed by God. This, to be fair, came out of St. Augustine’s writings which I don’t always agree with. This belief was declared heretical and is still frowned on by the Catholic and Episcopalian churches.
This link contains some information, and this one contains more. Please be aware that these are both secular links.

I could make a case that even requiring someone verbally accept Christ as his or her Saviour implies that an action can make men worthy of Salvation. Certainly one problem I have with some of the things I hear from some Christians is the way they seem to be constantly emphasizing their salvation and others sinfulness. My take on Christianity is that there has never been a human being who is worthy of the grace, of the salvation, of the love which has been given to us. Christ, by the way, does not count because He was fully divine, just as He was fully human, one of the lovely paradoxes the God I worship is so fond of throwing at us.:wink:

The reason for Christ, again, in my own interpretation, is God wanted to demonstrate to humanity in a tangible fashion His willingness to know us completely, including the various awkwardnesses that come with inhabiting a very fallible human body (dare I say something about design flaws?;)). As Christians, we have evidence of Christ’s joy at a wedding, His grief at the death of a friend, His temptation, and even His fear and unwillingness in the Garden of Gethsemane. If I’m balking at the prospect of sending out yet another resume and cover letter, I know Christ has been there in far worse circumstances and it’s OK.

Merrin and everyone else, my apologies. I’ve strayed far from the OP. I know that several people on this message board will disagree with me, but it is not my place to say who is saved and who isn’t. I’ve prayed while writing this post, and listened for an answer. Yes, I got one which I will not include. My bottom line is it is not for us humans to say, but this human would not be surprised to find that a good person who has not accepted Christ into his life is still as welcome before Him as any of the rest of us. As I’ve said elsewhere, none of us is worthy of Salvation, but all of us are given it. Then again, I’m not always sure that I’m even worthy of the SDMB.

Respectfully,
CJ

114

I should say, in case my posts above are at all unclear, that my motive with the whole ‘Jim’ thing is not to try to convince you that you are wrong, neither to try to disprove anything you say, but rather a (possibly flawed) attempt to get you to share aspects of your faith (that I feel may be of particular interest to people like Jim) that I’ve not heard you talk much about.

115

I’m not going to take offense at what you say as long as we talk in a nice manner without some of the “stuff” that went on in other threads. I suppose you’re right that everything I and millions of other people believe could be “wishful thinking”. I don’t think that it is but I know that everyone here isn’t going to agree on everything and everyone is entitled to share their own belief. I’ve said everything here I can think of to say so I guess it’s other people’s turn to do the talking and if no one share’s my beliefs well then that’s their privilege of course. Sorry I can’t always answer your questions perfectly or convincingly. There isn’t any way to prove to everyone that I’m not making it up. The Bible is there, it’s up to each individual to decide whether to believe it is God’s word and to have faith in what it says. I’m sure that there are many other Christians that would be much better at defending the faith than me. Sighh…IMHO satan just loves to make it so complicated for people.

116

I understand, Mangetout, just wish I were better at explaining things. Perhaps Joe_Cool would do a better job if he were to step in here. I have the knowledge and beliefs inside my heart and head but putting it down in words so someone else can understand is often difficult for me. He seems to explain things very well from what I’ve seen so far, IMHO.

117

His4ever, it’s not just a case of people looking at the Bible and believing in it-in truth, you want people to look at the Bible and interpret it the same way you do. IMHO, the Bible is complicated enough in and of itself, without bringing Satan into the picture.

118

I don’t agree with everything you say, CJ, but I like you.:slight_smile: It’s true that none of us are worthy of salvation but it’s a free gift to those who accept God’s provision. I don’t think I’m better than anyone else. Just a sinner saved by grace wanting to share the good news with others. I’ve heard it expressed this way : A Christian sharing the gospel is just one beggar telling another where to find bread. I kind of liked that for Jesus is the Bread of life. I really can’t agree with your statement that seems to say all are saved and anyone who hasn’t accepted Christ is still saved. I don’t disagree with your statements just to be contrary, I simply disagree because when I read the Word, I see something different. However, I will agree that it’s not up to us to say who’s saved and who isn’t because only God knows the heart. I do think there are cases you can tell for sure that someone’s lost but I don’t want to get into a long thing on that. If Jesus is in the heart, there should be some kind of evidence of a changed life. Of course, the change will be more dramatic in some as compared to others. Anyway, we could get into a whole long diatribe on this and that isn’t really my intention.

Question: Do you believe in universal redemption as Lekatt does? Just curious. It’s my opinion that this teaching isn’t Scriptural. There are any number of verses that state those who believe are saved, those who don’t incur God’s wrath. The teaching that everyone is automatically saved and need to nothing, be nothing, believe nothing, etc, as Lekatt believes is simply not in the Bible. I mean no disrespect to him. God desires everyone to be saved but the Word teaches there are those who will not believe and will reject the gospel. Doesn’t it say that “straight is the gate and narrow the way that leadeth to life and few there be that find it, and broad is the road and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many there be that go in thereat”? Sorry don’t have the scriptural reference handy. Left my e Bible at home.

Anyway, didn’t mean for the post to get quite this long. Have a nice day, CJ

119

His4Ever, as someone who’s taken a lot of abuse from nominal Christians, my take on the issue of who is saved and who isn’t is that every time tell someone they’re going to hell, I’m that much closer to going there myself. That applies whether it’s speaking casually out of anger or deliberately after considering my thoughts, my beliefs, and my experiences as a Christian. During my previous post, and before and during this one, I have prayed heavily, and I must ask you to accept that my posts have come out of what I perceive as the response to those prayers. I don’t, of course, ask you to agree with it.

Thanks for the compliment, by the way,
CJ

120

Actually, since I’ve got time on my hands, let me put it this way. If you told me on pain of death, condemnation to a Jack Chick style hell, or any other threat you care to use, that I had to condemn one person on this planet to hell or say that one person was not to be given salvation, the one person I would name is that person known to you as cjhoworth. To do otherwise would be to break the commandment Christ Himself gave us, and, to make matters worse, to do so to my own benefit.

CJ