So, a person who has had no opportunity to hear of Jesus goes to Hell?
If so, you’ve got a real fun group there!
So what happens to good people who haven’t been “saved?”
Do they go to Hell? Or someplace in between?
Christians believe that without Christ’s death and resurrection, redemption and salvation would be impossible.
It doesn’t follow, however, that a person must be a Christian to be saved from Hell.
Basically, no one knows (and anyone who claims to know is committing blasphemy).
We are created in the likeness of God, pure, complete, worthy of God’s unconditional love, and eternal. Eternal life is our birthright.
We need do nothing, be nothing, believe nothing to live eternally.
However, the quality of our life is determined by the choices we make along the way.
If we choose to become like our Creator, and love unconditional, then we will achieve peace, joy, and understanding.
Heaven, hell, and many other “mansions” exist in the after life. God has no religion, only love, for His children.
This information comes from the experience of hundreds of near death experiencers.
You can read some of their experiences at http://ndeweb.com
**Merrin wrote:
One can live a blamless life and still goto hell should it exist, or has my Mother got the wrong end of the stick here.**
You’ve hit upon one of the many conundrums of monotheism; how to reconcile an all-loving, just god with the idea that thru only one religion can one gain ‘salvation,’ especially when there are many people who do not or could not practice that religion.
My answer to this is that monotheism isn’t true. Rather, the universe is polytheistic. The J/C/I god is only one of many gods. Where you go in the ‘afterlife’ is dependent upon which belief system you follow. Of course, this assumes there is an afterlife (with a tip of the hat to our Atheist board members).
So, Native Americans, Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, etc all go to their own version of the afterlife. Since they’re not Christians, they’ve no need to follow the rules of Christianity.
Actually, that’s a good point, Freyr. Does the Bible specifically say !heaven == hell?
As you know, Lekatt, you and I have gone round on this subject before. Mankind’s “birthright” to eternal life as you call it was lost in the garden of Eden. Eternal life is obtained only through acceptance of Christ, like it or not this is what the Scriptures teach. You pick the Sciptures you like and ignore all the ones that tell us that Christ died for our sins. He wouldn’t have done that if it wasn’t necessary to do it, my friend. I shared many of these Scriptures with you on the Thoughtful Living Message Board and you chose to ignore them. I think I’ll believe what God says about it over what you say, if you don’t mind. What’s happened to you is that you’ve allowed near death experiences and their messages to take authority over God’s word. Even though God’s word clearly teaches that satan and his demons can appear as angels of light in order to deceive us, 2 Corinthians 11:14-15. Do you test your beings of light and spirit guide (as I’ve heard you mention) according to 1 John 4:1-3? 1 Timothy 4:1 clearly states “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils”. To be perfectly frank, Lekatt, this is what I think has happened to you. You are correct in saying we need to do nothing, be nothing, or believe in nothing to live eternally. We’re all going to live eternally, the question is where? The choices are limited - heaven or hell. What we do with Christ, God’s love gift, will determine where we live forever. You’re also right about God having no religion. Religion is man’s way of trying to be good enough to reach God. In Christ, God reached down to man. He’s a Person, not a religion. Of course, you’ve already told me that you will never consider my beliefs to be truth. It really saddens me to see you deceived in this way by these “beings of light” and “spirit guides”. They give you these wonderful feelings of love love love and make you feel good so you believe whatever they tell you. It’s even sadder that people will read the things you say and believe them without seeing what God has to say about it. But, then, that doesn’t matter to you either because I remember you told me that the Bible isn’t the authority for your life. I’ve said this to NDEers before and I’ll say it again. Any being of light you see in an NDE that tells you anything that contradicts the word of God, does not come from Him but is a deceiving, lying spirit. The reason? To get you to think that you’re okay, you’re going to heaven no matter what so there’s nothing for you to do. You can ignore most of that stuffy old Bible just practive love love love. You don’t need Christ. That is an out and out lie, Lekatt! If you refuse to accept the Way that God has provided for you (and that Way is Jesus Christ and His death for you) I can tell you on the authority of God’s word that you’ll never ever see heaven. I pray your eyes will be opened one day, sir, before it’s too late.
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1 Peter 5:8-9
(Jesus speaking to the religious leaders of His day) Ye are of your father, the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it..
John 8:44
Do we wait until we’re dead to open our birthday and Christmas gifts? A gift that someone gives you is meant for now, not when you’re dead. If you don’t open the gift, you don’t have the benifit of it nor have you really accepted it. The gift of eternal life through Christ must be accepted before death, it’s too late afterwards. Otherwise, why did Jesus tell His followers to go unto all the world and preach the gospel? Why share the gospel at all? Clearly, to me, this is just one more lie of the serpent.
2 Corinthians 6:2 - (For he saith, I HAVE HEARD THEE IN AS TIME ACCEPTED, AND IN THE DAY OF SALVATION HAVE I SUCCOURED THEE: behold, now is the accepted time, behold, now is the day of salvation.)
Hebrews 2:2-3 - For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.
**His4Ever wrote:
You pick the Sciptures you like and ignore all the ones that tell us that Christ died for our sins.**
Could you please explain why your interpretation of Christian Scripture is superior to lekatt’s interpretation?
**robertliguori wrote:
Actually, that’s a good point, Freyr. Does the Bible specifically say !heaven == hell?**
Hrm… I dunno. Can anyone show us a specific quote that confirms or denies this?
Hmm, well here we are back to the old “my interpretation, your interpetation” argument. It seems to me like this little trump card is always brought out when someone doesn’t want to believe what plain English says IMHO. How many different way are there to interpret “Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures”? 2 Cor. 15:3 I quoted many other Scriptures to Lekatt that say the same thing. I didn’t get a reply. The words are there in plain English. Say that it doesn’t say it all you wish, doesn’t change what it clearly says. To me the whole thing seems childish to see words that plainly state something then turn around and say “but that’s just your, interpretation”. INMO it’s just a copout because people don’t want to believe what it says.
—Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures—
Ok, so Christ died for my sins. Mission accomplished. What does that have to do with believing in he existed? If Jesus exists and wants to let me into his exclusive club, he can, or not: sounds like his club, so it’s his bussiness I guess.
—Otherwise, why did Jesus tell His followers to go unto all the world and preach the gospel? Why share the gospel at all?—
Well, that’s kind of confusing in itself, since apparently hearing the Gospel doesn’t (and must not) accomplish anything as far as converting people: only the Holy Spirit can do that, whenever it pleases, whether they’ve heard the Gospel or not.
Of course, thankfully no agent of Satan ever confused me THIS much:
http://www.insolitology.com/images/chick2.gif
Does this mean that we must believe literally in the story of Adam and Eve? Is that necessary to establish the existence of original sin? If Eve and then Adam hadn’t eaten the fruit, would it have been necessary for Jesus to die on the cross?
**H4E wrote:
Hmm, well here we are back to the old “my interpretation, your interpetation” argument. It seems to me like this little trump card is always brought out when someone doesn’t want to believe what plain English says IMHO.**
First, the Christian Bible wasn’t written in “plain English” but rather Greek of the 1st century of the Common Era. Your plain English is a translation of that Greek. And, of course, there’s the issue of cultural context. When a particular word or phrase is used, what does it mean to the original writer and how does one best translate that phrase into a modern language.
You still haven’t answered the question, either. Why is your interpretation superior? Do you have some knowledge or training that allows you to gain more insight and understanding? If so, what is that training and where did you get it?
Your only response so far has been (paraphrased) “Well, it’s obvious what it means, it’s in plain English.” If the interpretation were that obvious, wouldn’t all Christians be in agreement on it?
There is also the matter of connotation. It would be easy to interpret His4ever’s “plain English” to mean “English that is dull and uninspiring”.
His4Ever: Please could you tell me how you interpret this scripture:
?
It seems to me to be implying that belief is not required for salvation; what do you think?
That should read: 1 Timothy 4:(8.5)-10
(I hope nobody will mind me beginning my quote in the middle of a verse; the chapter and verse structure is something that was imposed long after the original texts were made).
To His4Ever
I see you are spreading your fear and threatening the good folks of SDMB.
It is true that Jesus said to go and preach the good news, however, He was talking about what He was preaching: love one another, forgive, do not judge others, etc.
The stuff you are spreading around do not exist when Jesus said to preach the gospel. You seem to ignore the facts.
Also there is no verse I can find in the Bible that specifically says Jesus died for our sins, or Jesus was sacrificed for our sins. If I have overlooked it please show me.
What I have said about God I learned in His presence. Hundreds of other NDEers say the same thing.
You misjudge the intelligence of others, and their ability to read.
There is no real basis in the Bible for Jesus being sacrificed for the sins of the people.
Love
Leroy
An answer to religious critics.
There’s a lot of criticism of Near Death Experiencers on the Internet by Christian web sites. It’s true the typical NDE doesn’t echo their church doctrine, so it is labeled false, even satanic. Some individual experiencers are targeted with inaccurate, slanderous attacks. As NDEs become more popular the number of insults grow. This writing answers a couple of the main points of contention – that NDEs don’t follow God’s Biblical plan of salvation, and NDEers don’t recognize the forces of evil in the world.
The Christian Bible is not God. There is not one verse in the Bible that was written by God, therefor the Bible is not the word of God. The Bible was written by men, and not one of those men was God.
However, it can be said that the Bible was inspired by God, because God created everything, therefor everything was inspired by Him. All events happen due to God’s creation of the world, in Him we all have our being.
The Bible has thousands of verses. These verses were written down hundreds, even thousands of years apart. The first verses written have nothing to do with the last. But, as is well known, manipulators of the verse can take a few sentences here, and a few there, adding or changing the meaning of a word or two, and produce a new church doctrine that is said to be Biblical. Everyone will then be expected to conform to it. The so-called “plan of salvation,” I believe, is one of these manufactured doctrines.
The doctrine goes: “Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of the world, and whoever believes in this and accepts Jesus as their personal saviour will be saved. They will not die, but live eternally in Heaven.” Once Jesus is accepted, the saved will be saved forever. “Once saved, always saved.” However, those that reject Jesus will be thrown into hell to burn, scream, be tortured, feel intense pain for eternity. Now that’s what I call negative incentive.
Being saved is an act of faith, not works, you don’t have to do anything. It’s like a loyalty oath, a pledge of allegiance, a declaration of intent. The sad part is, there’s no mention of following the teachings of Jesus. I can understand why this doctrine came about. It is much, much easier to pledge your faith in Jesus, than it is to work at compassion, loving yourself and others. To grow spiritually by returning good, and forgiving those that despitefully use you. To not judge others, to heal the sick, feed the hungry, etc.
These Christians will tell you that when one accepts Jesus as their saviour, spiritual growth comes along with it, and everyone will want to be kind and loving afterwards. This is true for a few, but I would not be writing this if it were true for the majority. Jesus’ teachings of “love one another” should be the first thing taught and the last thing remembered in every sermon preached. Also, many churches put the teachings of Jesus so far on the back burner, that they fall right off the stove. I have talked to Christians who never heard the beatitudes sermonized.
Now, is this salvation doctrine Biblical. No, in my opinion, it is not. For the reasons stated below.
There is no verse in the Bible that clearly states the salvation doctrine. John 3:16 says nothing about a “sacrifice for sins.” Many of the other verses used to prove this doctrine do not either. There is verse about Jesus died for us, but mention nothing about sacrifice for sin. If this is the “heart” of Christianity wouldn’t it be clearly stated many times. Why does one need to read a verse here, and another there, plus do some interpretation of words to come up with it.
Now, another strange thing is no one seemed, at the time of His crucifixation, to know that it was a sacrifice for the sins of the world. The Romans didn’t know because they would have called it off. Human sacrifice was against Roman law. They would have never taken part in a human sacrifice for the sins of the world. His disciples and friends didn’t seem to know either. If they had known they were about to be absolved of all their sins, you would think they would have been in a better mood. No one said anything about it and no one was happy.
If no one on earth knew, then it is time to ask God about it. God would be the only one to order the sacrifice. No one else was powerful enough. So here we have God ordering the sacrifice of His son to Himself for the sins of the world. Since sacrifices are designed to please God so He will grant favors. God must have been pleased with watching His son die cruelly on the cross. Pleased enough to grant immunity from the “wages of sin” for those who believed in it and accepted the whole scenario. If this seems a bit illogical, it’s because it is illogical, and if God was pleased with watching His son die, He must have been very pleased when throwing disbelievers in hell. He could listen to their screams for eternity.
I do not believe God did this, nor is like this.
Christians also criticize NDEers for not talking about demons, devils, and other things that go bump in the night. This is true that most NDEs are positive experiences, full of love and light. So, why spend your valuable time worrying about the dark side. If you keep your focus on God’s unconditional love you will never have to deal with the negative. Stay on the positive path.
I can’t speak for all Near Death Experiencers, but for me, the love teachings of Jesus are the same as that learned in the near death experience. A few experiencers asked about the Bible during their NDEs. I was one of them. I was told that the only thing I needed to know about the Bible could be found in I Corinthians 13. The love chapter written by Paul. So, Near Death Experiencers are not so bad, they believe in love one another. If you don’t like them, just leave them alone. They have a right to their beliefs the same as you.
quote: 1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends; as for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
For our knowledge is imperfect and our prophecy is imperfect; but when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.
So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.