1 Corinthians 15:3-4 - For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, ** how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures**; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.
2Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: BY WHOSE STRIPES YE WERE HEALED.
There are more but I messed up the first message and erased it so I’m making this a little shorter.
Lekatt, note your statement above that you can find no scripture in the Bible that says Jesus died for our sins. Note the first scripture says Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. I’m sure I’ve shared these scriptures for you before. Do you understand plain English? It’s ridicuous for you to make a statement such as listed above when I can turn to any number of verses and read what you say you can’t find. I can only conclude that you’re spiritually blinded and see black where there is white and white where there is black. I pray your eyes to be opened. I’ve shown you scriptures that say He died for our sins. I’m sure I can find more. If you want to deny it, that’s your privilege, but please don’t give me any nonsense that the teaching isn’t there because I can read it with my own eyes.
In Christ, His4ever
Hello, Mangetout, let me see what I can do. I think this verse is saying that the Lord IS the Saviour of all men in that the way is open to all men (people) for salvation. It’s possible for all to be saved. Notice the last part of the verse says, “especially them that believe”. Unfortunately, all aren’t going to believe and accept. I realize there are some scriptures that people can choose to take as meaning all are saved no matter what but I doubt these scriptures can be taken to mean that in light of the many that state that only those who have Christ are saved. Let me just list a couple for example :
John 3:36 - He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth upon him.
2 Corinthians 4:4 - But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:(indicating there are people that are lost) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
1 John 5:12 - He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
I know there are many who think the Bible contradicts itself but as a friend of mine said, it’s a deep and demanding book. It helps to know the Author also. I myself accept it as God’s word and if there’s parts that seem to contradict I consider it to be because I don’t have complete understanding or haven’t interpreted it correctly. Anyway I am familiar with the belief of universal redemption but I just don’t find that teaching there. If it was true, there’d be no need to “go unto all the world” as Jesus commanded. Belief definitely is required, IMHO and according to what the word says. Hope this helps clarify my position.
Assuming that His4Everis 100 percent accurate on her reading of Scripture, why would anyone sign on? If there is a God, and His nature is exactly as H4e describes, I’d much rather burn in Hell. This is in no way a slam on H4E–it’s jsut that the God of the fundamentalists sounds so unpleasant–no fun, no books, no love, no music, no dancing–nothing but solemnity, hymnsinging, and gloom. What’s the point of being saved when the lake of fire and sizzling in flame forever seems preferable to a dismal heaven?
Thanks for your reply, His4Ever; next can you tell me what happens to people who have never heard of Jesus* on their death?
*(through no fault of their own; let’s say they were born in South America at around the same time as Jesus and died, say ten years after his redeeming sacrifice).
I don’t want to get bogged down in this interpretational argument again. I don’t know that my interpretation on all Scripture is superior as I don’t understand a lot of things. But come on, I can show a verse that’s says something very plain, if our language means anything. So why all the fuss? Let me pick the one I shared with Lekatt, 1 Cor 15 :3 - …Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. Now if it doesn’t say what it says, then what’s it saying according to you? I know the new testament was written in Greek and I also believe that it was translated correctly with Holy Spirit’s guidance. If you want to fuss over interpretations and analyze or whatever, that’s fine. I just happen to believe that the Bible is clear on a lot of things. If you don’t think so, well that’s your right.
Let me first say that the only reason I’m able to answer so many of these questions today is that I didn’t have to work today and have more time. I don’t always have a lot of computer time so if I’m thrown a bunch of questions, they probably won’t all get answered. **Mangetout]/b], you know I think I’ve been asked that before. I don’t know 100% for sure what God will do about that situation. I know that He told His followers (believers then and now) to go unto all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Many ministries and missionaries are trying to do just that today. Have you ever heard of the Jesus Film project? Anyway, I tend to believe, along with a lot of other Christians, that there are differing degrees of punishment in hell just as there are different rewards in heaven (salvation is a free gift thru acceptance of Christ, rewards are earned). I could give scriptures for that but I’ve been on this machine quite awhile so I’ll go on. Those who’ve never heard of Christ (hopefully our missionaries and others will be able to give everyone a chance to hear the gospel at least once, maybe that’s why Jesus hasn’t come back yet), will have it far more tolerable if they’re in hell, than a lot of other people who knew the gospel and didn’t accept it. Plus murderers, adulterers, etc. Check Matt 10:15 and Matt 10:22. They may give a little insight as to what I’m referring to. Sorry if I couldn’t be more clearer. I don’t know everything about everything but am sure about a lot of things. Did that make sense? I know many disagree but I believe that God is just. What He will do with those who haven’t heard, I leave with Him.
The verses you quoted are all written by Paul, somewhere around a hundred years or more after Jesus’ death. Paul was a missionary, like you, and was about building churches. While he shifted the focus off of Jesus’ teachings and onto the person, he still believed that love was the most important part of Christianity.
Jesus never considered himself God, called himself the Son of Man,
neither did anyone else until Paul. There is no verses that state Jesus was God. Not being God how could his death relieve sin.
You teach fear, because you are fearful. You never answered the rest of the material. Don’t you believe in love one another or non-judgement of others beliefs?
I think that anyone who will just read the New Testament straight through like they were reading it for the first time will see that Jesus was not God, although he was a master teacher, and that there was no sacrifice.
If you would like to get a quick look at what Jesus was about go to:
You are not teaching the material Jesus asked his disciples to teach. You are teaching the “salvation doctrine” which was not in existence when Jesus said to “go and teach the good news.”
Obviously, it was not, because Jesus had not been executed yet.
This has got to be my last post in this thread for the day. I didn’t mean to dominate the thread. In fact I’d like to hear what conclusions the person who started the OP has come to. gobear I doubt heaven is just going to be solemnit, hymnsinging, and gloom. Neither will it be dismal. All the wonders He’s preparing for those who’ve accepted His Gift of love are beyond are imagination. 1 Cor 2:9 - But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Dreary, gloomy eternity, no way! And I bet we worhisp, sing, and dance before Him! (not the sensual nasty stuff you see today)
In spite of our disagreements and differing beliefs, gobear I kinda like you. I pray for you and want God’s best for you. I’ve got to go.
Sorry to pick on you, H4E, and upon preview I see you might not get back to this until tomorrow, but I’d really appreciate clarification on this. My grandmother’s church is always talking about “crowns in heaven” and so forth, but I’d always kind of assumed that heaven was fairly egalitarian (and as good as it can possibly be.) I’m assuming you have some Scriptural support for asserting that Heaven is better for some than others?
Greetings to all! I know this has turned into a “my interpretations of the scriptures, your interpretations of the scriptures” question, but if you don’t mind the POV from a non-Christian religion to the OP, let me have a crack at it: the journey to attain the Presence of God is just that: a journey. We are created in God’s image, which means that we have the ability to mirror forth all of the atrributes and virtues of the Creator. We cannot attain the Presence of God until the glass that reflects those attributes is flawless, and perfectly polished (I’m using similies here, so bear with me). The more spiritual development we do in this world, the less we will have to do in the next. Truly evil people will be cast into the fire, but everyone else will just be in a different place in his/her journey upon reaching the afterworld. This belief applies, according to our Faith, equally to Christians, Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, et.
Oh, BTW, I’d like to clarify something. I joined the message board because I’d read Threadspotting for a long time, and I thought most of you are smart and funny, and I wanted to join in. I don’t want to give the impression that I’m here to convert anyone
Well, I thought I was finished. This has got to be it. Lekatt, I’m not kidding myself into thinking anything I say is going to turn you from your beliefs based on your NDE and spirit guide. You’ve made that clear. Only the Lord can make you see, all I can do is share the gospel. So that being said, yes I do believe in talking about Jesus’ love. When I think of His love, I always think of the cross where He died for my sins that I might have eternal life. And the love we’re to show each other, and true love for another means willingness to tell them the truth, even if it’s unpopular to the majority. And as far as judging other’s beliefs, I first and foremost believe the Bible IS God’s word and WAS writtten by Him through the pens of men guided by the Holy Spirit. So yes, if a person’s beliefs are completely oppposite of what it says, I see nothing wrong in pointing that out. You talk of nothing but God’s love and leave out the other parts of His nature so yes I feel I must concentrate on the part you’re omitting. The Scriptures I shared stating Jesus died for our sins are God’s word whether you believe it or not. You are going to know someday that this is truth, I can guarantee it. And as to your comments that Jesus is not God, I direct you to these Scriptures : John 1:1-3, 10, 14; Colossians 2:9(how much clearer does it need to be?); Hebrews 1:8; John 8:58(using the name God used of Himself with Moses at the burning bush).
I"m going to pray for you, Lekatt. I’m not trying to sound pompous or holier than thou here. I have a real concern for you.
I don’t really understand why you would base your spiritual beliefs totally on a near death experience and what a being of light tells you instead of the sure word of God which warns us about deception and satan’s ability to appear as an angel of light. I truly find it very difficult to understand. What do you think of the test that God gives in 1 John 4:1-3 to tell whether a spirit is from God or not? I urge you to read it and apply it the next time a spirit guide or being of light talks to you.
Sincerely in Christ, His4ever
P.S. By the way, I’m not speading hate and threats no matter what you say. I’m sharing what God’s word says, people are free to reject it if they choose
No, His4Ever, you will not change what I experienced. Don’t worry about me, I am safe and secure in God’s Love, and so are you and everyone else. I am not sure why you don’t read the whole text of the Bible instead of just the verses that suit your cause. You have ignored my questions, so I will assume that you either don’t know or don’t want to admit you are wrong.
I agree with many who write here. If God is really as cruel and mean as you describe Him, I would want nothing to do with Him.
I wish you would not try to scare people into believing as you do, I would think that would be a sin also.
When you really start loving and quit condemning everyone, then you too will see the Light.
Hmm, well these Scriptures may clarify that a bit especially the first one:
1 Corinthians 3:24-27,reading the whole chapter may help put in in context.
Don’t know if these will make it any clearer or not :
Matthew 5:11-12, Matthew 6:1-4, Colossians 3:23-25.
Doesn’t talk a lot about crowns, but does speak of rewards. The one in Corinthians is probably the best. It talks of the foundation that has been laid by Christ which is the purchase of our salvation. Then those who build on it with either wood, hay, or stubble (wasted lives, bad works, etc.) and those who build on it the precious stones, gold, silver, etc (good works, lives lived in the Spirit, etc.) won’t receive the same reward, yet both are saved because of the foundation, Christ. It says the fire tests our works to see what kind they are, but doesn’t test the people themselves because they are safe as they’ve accepted Jesus. Anyway that’s about the best I can do to explain it. The Bible does speak of the crown of life and in Revelation talks about the 24 elders seated in heaven with crowns on their heads, supposedly representing the 12 tribes from the old testament and 12 apostles of Christs, in turn representing beleivers of all ages. At least that’s the interpretation of the 24 elders that I’ve heard.
Since 1 Corintians 3 has only 23 verses (at least in the NIV and KJV) you might want to speak quickly before you confirm everyone’s suspicions that you are not reading from the same songsheet as the rest of the choir…
[QUOTE] Originally posted by lekatt *
[B. I am not sure why you don’t read the whole text of the Bible instead of just the verses that suit your cause. You have ignored my questions, so I will assume that you either don’t know or don’t want to admit you are wrong.*
Well, Lekatt, you know I could say the same thing about you. You don’t read the whole text of the Bible, just those that fit into your near death experience. I haven’t intentionally ignored questions but I get so many on here sometimes I just can’t answer everyone. And no I don’t always know the answers nor do I consider myself to be infallable about everything, but I’m rock solid on the plan of salvation. I simply don’t share your idea that the preaching of the gospel is just preaching of Jesus’s teaching. To me and millions of other Christians who read the same Bible I do the gospel is the good news that Jesus died for our sins and rose again and through belief in Him we have eternal life. "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with the wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God. 1Cor 1:17-19. Also Romans 1:16
I will not change you I know, but it’s very disheartening to see you explain away every Scripture that tells us Jesus died for our sins. But then I gather that to you the Bible isn’t to be taken as the word of God. That makes it easy to ignore the verses that don’t match up with your near death experience. If I have to make a choice whether to believe what near death experiences say about the afterlife and what the Bible says, I’ll pick the Bible every time. It’s more sure than an exerience. Oh, yes, also we believe in teaching the things Jesus taught and He taught on more than just love though His love for us is unfathomable. But we simple can’t leave out the fact that He died for our sins.
There are many Scriptures dealing with our sins, His sacrifice, and heaven and hell. You are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of, you only believe the verses that go along with your experience. An exerience that can be deceptive to me is not something to base my eternal destiny on, I’ll stick with the word of God. It’s pointless to continue, I’m very familiar with your belief, it’s shared by many others. I won’t change it, only God can. Peace. Take care. Love in Christ, His4ever.
I myself accept it as God’s word and if there’s parts that seem to contradict I consider it to be because I don’t have complete understanding or haven’t interpreted it correctly. Anyway I am familiar with the belief of universal redemption but I just don’t find that teaching there. If it was true, there’d be no need to “go unto all the world” as Jesus commanded. Belief definitely is required, IMHO and according to what the word says. Hope this helps clarify my position.
I didn’t mean to dominate the thread. In fact I’d like to hear what conclusions the person who started the OP has come to.