I’ve been meaning to ask you this for a while, His4Ever: Could you be wrong?
Well, now I see that you mean vv10-14:
Yes, she could be wrong, us christians could all be wrong.
But belieivng this has made our lives so much better even so.
Hmm…no offence vanilla, but I’d still like to hear H4Es own response on that question.
You know, Mangetout, even though I don’t think I am I’m going to say that it is possible I’m wrong. But what have I lost if I am? And what do those who don’t believe lose if it is true? I’d rather believe it and it not to be true than to not believe it and find that it is true.
On the near death experience note, as shared by Lekatt, I have a few links that share a biblical/Christian view of near death experiences for anyone who wants to check it out.
http://www.watchman.org/na/anglight.htm
http://www.lordsday.org/death.htm
http://www.ronrhodes.org/qbeingoflight.html
I hope these work.
Sorry, I’m always messing numbers up. It is verses 11-15. Probably got it mixed up with another Scripure I was looking at. Breaks over, gotta go.
Pascal’s Wager eh?
If it was only belief, I’d agree that there’s some logic here (although I’m not sure if belief is something over which we can exercise a great deal of conscious control), but it isn’t solely belief, it’s also a whole load of behavioural hoops through which one must jump.
Let me put it another way:
Why should a neutral third-party consider your worldview more valid that that of, say, Lekatt?
Sure, your interpretation of the Bible may be more stringent, but you’re the one insisting this is an important factor; why should anyone reading this not say “you know what, H4E’s viewpoint is more consistent with a literal interpretation, but like Lekatt, I don’t agree with the view that the Bible is an infallible, consistent, wholly divinely-penned document”
?
I suppose I ought to chime in here again.
I think His4Ever has presented the evangelical stance on salvation pretty clearly – we’re all sinners and as such doomed to eternal punishment, but God has in His mercy made provision for the salvation of some, and the Bible, at least in the evangelical interpretation of it, spells out how He accomplished this and what we’re supposed to do in response.
However, there are some assumptions and misinterpretations included in the evangelical interpretation that I would be remiss if I didn’t point out.
Well, yeah, that’s what that verse says. But the Bible also says, “There is no God.” Really. Psalms 14:1b. If you read it in context, of course, it’s what the fool says in his heart. But that out-of-context quotation illustrates emphatically what it means when one takes a Bible verse out of context.
Now, when I read that passage, it’s part of the farewell discourse of Jesus as recorded by John – the reconstruction by the last living participant of the teachings He gave at the Last Supper.
Here’s part of the discourse, including the context of that verse:
Okay. We have Thomas, who had left everything to follow Jesus, who had a short time before stated his willingness to die with Jesus if necessary, shocked that Jesus, who has been teaching the Way, is saying that He is leaving and His disciples cannot follow where He is going. Being confused as to what Jesus is saying (a common failing of the disciples prior to Pentecost, according to the Bible), he says that he doesn’t know the way that Jesus says he is supposed to be following. Like many another spiritual seeker, Thomas apparently sees “the Way” as some mystical path that he is supposed to be following but doesn’t understand how to.
And Jesus says that He Himself is the way. By following Him, by living the life He commands, by accepting God’s love as it’s shown in Him, by keeping Jesus’s commandments and trusting in God, you are following the way.
To extract that verse from context and represent it as saying that orally professing Jesus as savior and lord is the only way to salvation, is saying that Jesus, with a sublime ignorance of what Thomas has done, is saying to him that he has to accept Him as savior and lord to be “saved.” Well, now, what exactly does Jesus think Thomas has been doing? If that’s the proper view to take of that verse, somebody ought to contact Tubadiva and tell her she needs to take out membership in the SDMB!
Here’s Paul, from the second chapter of his letter to the Christians in Philippi:
Huh? Work out your own salvation? What happened to Jesus being the only way to salvation?
It’s because God is at work in people, guiding them, and leading them to a way of life akin to that of Christ – see verses 5-8 on the attitude to be taken.
It’s trusting in God’s love to take care of you, not necessarily to keep you from problems but to be there with you carrying you safely through them.
Because He ain’t an ogre to condemn everyone who doesn’t follow some evangelist’s formulary of confession and belief in a series of contraintuitive doctrines. It’s trusting in His love to overcome all obstacles. It’s living fully and richly in Him, loving without thought of consequence as Jesus did.
What about the “virtuous pagans” – those who lived as good lives as they possibly could but never heard about Jesus through being born before Him or in areas that missionaries hadn’t come to yet? Well, faith in God’s goodness suggests that He has made some sort of arrangement for them (more on this momentarily).
Yep. It’s more than worth noting that Jesus was talking to the Pharisees – the people who were making rules about who was going to be saved by the Law and who were going to be condemned – and placing obstacles, in the form of manmade rules, in the way of those seeking salvation.
It’s very hard to see the Pharisee in oneself. But it’s something I think most Christians need to try to do. Especially those who identify groups of people whom God doesn’t love, or whose sins especially grieve God. Because according to Jesus, the ones who particularly needed that kind of condemnation were the ones who were doing the judging, not the ones that they were judging.
Preach it, Leroy!! Though I don’t put a whole lot of trust in NDE’s and find “spirit guides” to be a dubious guide to anything trustworthy, the point you make here is orthodox belief.
From what I’ve been able to put together from Scripture, salvation is first and foremost a matter of grace – God’s free gift, unearned and without any mandate. He saves us – from ourselves, from our own foolishness – because He loves us.
One accepts that gift through having faith in Him – not intellectual adherence to a theological formulary, but placing one’s trust in His goodwill towards us. And then one lives out that faith by obeying His teachings, which consist in spreading His word, loving Him and loving one’s fellow man and showing it, maintaining a humility that respects others as one’s equals, with human dignity equal to oneself, by helping those who need help, by winsomeness of character and peacefulness of spirit…
Obviously Jerry Falwell is a prime example of how one does this.
:smack:
Actually, you find this in John 3:17: "“Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” Universal atonement is there – Christ as depicted in John often makes the distinction between “the world” and “His disciples” and what’s here is that the world might be saved; it’s up to the individual to take it and make it personal, by trusting Him and following His teachings.
His4Ever got this one right, though – almost.
I don’t have a clue what He has prepared for those that love Him. But I trust the promise here. And if “worship, sing, and dance” is your cup of tea, He’ll have something that makes the best we can do today sound like a three-year-old singing “Jesus loves me” offkey. But, equally much, for the person whose joy is in learning (paraphrasing Isaac Asimov in one of his theological-speculation moods here), He’ll have endless vistas of new knowledge. For those whose greatest pleasures are sensual, new and more wonderful sensations. (“Sensual” means “pertaining to the senses,” my friend – you may have meant “sensuous” but even so, God intended our senses to be pleased by His creation. Don’t mistake the true idea that we are not to be seduced away from Him by things of this world for the false one that we are not to enjoy the world that He entrusted us with. There’s a reason you have a body, and it’s not so that you can be shed of it – that’s a Gnostic idea, heretical and not Christian.)
Yabbit!!! The command is “tell the truth in love.” Yet so many times people will quote Scriptures (as you have been accused of doing) in a context that sounds like “I’m saved and you’re not, so nyah nyah nyah” or “I like these rules because they apply to you and not to me, so here’s a commandment or three out of context.” If you’re forced to say something displeasing, you are IMHO under the obligation to do it as gently and compassionately as possible, with due thought for the probable reactions of your listeners and the human decency to include yourself in those under consideration. “You are sinners” is always offensive; “we are sinners” can be said in a way that is not.
Just one final cavil:
It doesn’t say this anywhere in Scripture, although sometimes Hebrews 9:27 (“And just as it is appointed for mortals to die once, and after that the judgment…”) is advanced as meaning this. But it nowhere says immediately after. Certainly it’s available before death, but we don’t know much about after. Except that Christ descended to preach to the spirits in Sheol, to give them too salvation – so something regarding repentance after death is a part of His plan.
I hope you won’t take this as condemnatory of you personally, His4Ever. Like you, I feel a burden to preach the salvation of Jesus Christ – and I’ve been blessed with the ability to see clearly when a evangelistic-style witness is turning people off. So I’m raising the questions and providing the alternate views of His grace that may alleviate that – because we’re working for the same end here. Peace? 
Thank you Polycarp, I have no argument with what you said.
I am concerned, like you, with the many people turned away from God by the evangelical preaching of fundamentals. I am at peace with any teaching that is of a loving, compassionate nature. I left church at an early age because of it myself. I just wish the Christian faith could bring back the teachings that started it.
Here we have His4Ever saying: “I simply don’t share your idea that the preaching of the gospel is just preaching of Jesus’s teaching.” What else would the gospel be? Jesus asked His disciples to go and preach the gospel, this was before His execution. What else could the gospel be but what He had taught them?
This is very disturbing to me. Us NDEers get the forked stick from religious and scientific fanatics alike. No wonder it is so hard to get an experiencer to talk about his experience. Everyone seems to know more about it than the one who had it. I have found that in reading the literature of these people, not one has a decent grounding in what near death experiences really are.
Oh, well, one thing at a time, I have on my site a section on Jesus quoted directly from the Bible, that shows what He was about.
http://ndeweb.com/jesus00.htm
I have no quarrel with any group, organization, religion or person that believes in love one another. Many say they do, but their actions speak so loud I can’t hear what they are saying.
Love
Leroy
No, I don’t take what you say as condemnatory of me personally. What I don’t like is being called names. Yes, there is peace with us even though we don’t share the same beliefs because we can talk in a nice manner even if we never agree. One thing I simply can’t understand is that people like Lekatt and those here who share his belief are willing to follow Jesus teachings on love one another, etc. and they have only good to say about Him, yet they won’t take that step and accept Him as Saviour. They won’t believe that we’re sinners and Jesus paid the price for our sin. The teaching is in the Bible. But of course, there’s not much I can say to those who don’t believe it’s God’s word and infallable, innerant, etc. Lekatt’s argument that the gospel is only the sharing of Jesus’ teachings and can’t be about Him dying for our sins because He hadn’t been killed yet doesn’t stand up in the light of Matthew 26:28 where Jesus tells His disciples at the last supper, “For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins..” Remission means release from a debt,forgiveness, or pardon. Also Luke 24:46-48 says it pretty clearly also. Jesus is talking to His disciples after His resurrection and He clearly tells them that it was written that He should suffer for us “And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentence and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all the nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.” What is supposed to be preached among the nations? Repentence and remissions of sins. Acts 2:38 says “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remissions of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 10:43 "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remissions of sins." Also Romans 3:23-26.
I’m not sure, Polycarp what exactly you mean by “alternate views of grace.” If it means watering down the true gospel in any way, I can’t accept it. I’ve given many Scriptures that say that Jesus died for our sins yet Lekatt chooses to find ways to explain them away in one way or another. Jesus Himself said that what was to preached to the nations was repentence and the remission of sins. If you feel a burden as I do, to share the gospel of Christ, it needs to be the true gospel: salvation through acceptance of Christ believing that He died for our sins and trusting Him. Love is very important but it’s not all Jesus speaks of. Love is to be the result of accepting Him in our hearts. We’re to love others, do what we can to help them, and when opportunity comes share the gospel. And by gospel I mean the good news that as sinners we can have forgiveness of our sins by believing in and accepting Jesus as Saviour. This isn’t the same gospel Lekatt believes in. Sometimes preaching or teaching the truth does turn people off. They don’t like it for various reasons, one being they know if they accept Christ that conviction will come from the Holy Spirit to change their lifestyle and they don’t want to do it. I don’t like to change things I do sometimes, but I still know that I should and it’s best. Does that mean we should water it down to be more pleasing or politically correct? I don’t think so.
Polycarp don’t take anything I say here as putting you down or anything. I mean no disrespect to you. We just don’t believe the same thing about the gospel. I think a lot of people just don’t completely understand God’s whole nature. He is Love, and He is also holy and pure, without sin in any form. He can’t be true to His nature and accept sin in His presence. When man fell, He could have just wiped us out and started over or whatever. But He chose, because of His great love for us to send Jesus to pay our debt of sin. All who will may come, He won’t force anyone. In this way He reconciles the holy part of His nature with the love part. I know that many people think that everyone is automatically saved, there’s no need to do anything. But that’s not what I see in His word. We don’t realize the seriousness of sin with God. (Notice, I said we. I’m not putting myself above anyone). He’s not going to just pat the unrepentant sinner who’s never trusted God’s provision in Christ and welcome him into heaven with a wink as some seem to think.
This has turned out to be longer than I intended. What exactly do you believe the gospel to be, Polycarp? If it doesn’t include what I’ve already shared that I believe it to be, our beliefs will never agree but that’s ok. I like you. I wonder what the person who started the OP thinks about all our different ideas. Gotta go. Peace and Love in Jesus, His4ever
When people aren’t yet christians, I think, IMHO, that the idea of Judgement turns them off.
It would have me.
They need to know God loved them enough to die for them.
After they are saved, then they will understand God being judgemental, before-it only makes them think He is cruel.
Do you get what i am trying to say?
If God needed a human sacrifice to forgive us our mistakes, then He is cruel. He knew man would make mistakes when He created man. So why all the baloney.
God judges no one and punishes no one for any thing. His Love is greater than any mistakes we can make.
But see, His4ever, it is also a sin to assume that one is “saved.” See, that’s presuming, and you’re not supposed to do that.
Nor are we supposed to use Sola Fide, or Sola Scriptura.
Christ himself said, when you are doing good to others, you are doing that to Him. In that way, you are following His WAY.
He said I am the WAY. But, his way was to love and accept everyone.
And here’s another thought-if he did die for our sins, and not believing in Him would be a sin-since he already died for that-would it really matter?
God is Love, He is not jealous, angry, hateful, or cruel.
He loves everyone just as they are. Sure His children make mistakes. Would parents living here on earth, throw their children in the fireplace because they disobeyed, or drown them in a lake. I certainly hope not. God doesn’t harm His own children, He loves them more than any earth parent can love theirs.
God holds all His children safe and secure in His Love. Your eternal life was assured when you were created.
However, due to the free will God gives His children, the quality of your life is up to you. The closer you become like God, loving and compassionate, the better your life will become.
Near Death Experiencers by the hundreds say this is what they experienced during their presence with God. I was fortunate to experience it also.
I realize some think NDEs are only local, but the preponderance of the evidence at this time refutes that.
I will try to explain how these things happen in a future post.
Or, if you are impatient, go to the FAQ section of my site, ndeweb.com.
God is Love, He is not jealous, angry, hateful, or cruel.
He loves everyone just as they are. Sure His children make mistakes. Would parents living here on earth, throw their children in the fireplace because they disobeyed, or drown them in a lake. I certainly hope not. God doesn’t harm His own children, He loves them more than any earth parent can love theirs.
God holds all His children safe and secure in His Love. Your eternal life was assured when you were created.
However, due to the free will God gives His children, the quality of your life is up to you. The closer you become like God, loving and compassionate, the better your life will become.
Near Death Experiencers by the hundreds say this is what they experienced during their presence with God. I was fortunate to experience it also.
I realize some think NDEs are only local, but the preponderance of the evidence at this time refutes that.
I will try to explain how these things happen in a future post.
Or, if you are impatient, go to the FAQ section of my site, ndeweb.com.
Here is an attempt at answering the OP. This is serious.
Yes, if you believe that Jesus died so that YOU can go to heaven and live forever, you will - not just by being a really good person. This also applies to other saviours in other religions - it is not exclusive to Christianity.
- A person, from their own point of view does not die.
To die is not something that cannot be experienced because your conciousness does not persist through the event. You can experience other people die, but cannot experience your own death and thus do not really die.
- If you ‘believe’ you will expect experience beyond the dying. If you believe at the point of dying that life will continue, then it may as well because you will not know if it does not.
This is as near to eternal life/heaven that you can get - expectation of continuation at the boundary of oblivion. Here an expectation becomes an experience, since there is temporarily, no other side to the expectation. This may be an illusion, but for you as a person who dies it IS eternal life.
- Thus you must have faith that your conciousness will persist beyond death for this to work. You can be an evil person (eg Saddam Hussein and George Bush) and believe in life eternal and so actually have life eternal (or heaven or whatever).
Jesus died for us so that those who believe in him can ‘experience’ eternal life. You cant just be good to have this.
Of course, this is rather selfish. IMHO, it is better to be good during life, respect others and make life as pleasurable for all.
—They need to know God loved them enough to die for them.—
I think the major problem a lot of people have with the story is that it doesn’t make much sense to them. It has all the right buzzwords, like love and sacrifice… but the thing doesn’t make much sense in the aggregate. It’s like the girl who kills herself to prove how much she loves someone. It can sound great and romantic… as long as you ignore the fact that it doesn’t make any damn sense in the first place. The problem is that anyone can dump those great sounding words into something and herald it (and many do, even those with horrid agendas).
Even if it did make sense, every single time a non-believer, as real and warty as they might otherwise be, has died to save others is far greater of a sacrifice, a far greater love: because they gave up something they had no hope or expectation of ever getting back.
Good morning, all. Well, I think I’ll let you guys have at it for awhile. Don’t know what else I can say.
Lekatt, what you’re saying sounds great and I know it’s what you learned in your NDE but it simply doesn’t agree with what God says about the afterlife no matter what you say. You can keep rattling on and on and repeating how God will never punish anyone and we’re all going to heaven no matter what but I see something different in God’s word. There are plenty of examples of NDE’s where people went to hell. Like it or not, hell is just as real as heaven. True Christians have had NDE’s and went to heaven and non Christans have had NDE’s and gone to hell. All these other NDE’s that tell people they’e okay and need nothing, they are accepted no matter what, are deceptions IMHO. I will repeat people don’t understand the full nature of God, they just concentrate on the part they like. I’ll say to you what you once said to me, I will never see your beliefs as truth no matter how many NDE’s you have because they don’t agree with Scripture and I will always choose God’s word over your experience. Nuff said. The truth is there, anyone can accept it or reject it. Everytime I hear you repeat that God will never punish anyone no matter what and that we’re assured eternal life in heaven no matter what something deep in my soul cringes (the Holy Spirit that dwells in me because of my acceptance of Christ and HIs sacrifice) because I know that I know that this isn’t the truth and you are deceiving and misleading people because you yourself are deceived. What I say means no disrespect to you as a person or condemnation or whatever. You have every right to believe as you do. I simple disagree with you, that’s all. Am also very concerned about you and those who listen to you. God bless you. In Christ, His4ever
There’s a Scripture that says “these things are written that ye may know ye have eternal life”. Don’t have the location of it at present. We can know we’re saved if we’ve done what HIs word says is necessary to be saved. No one here wants to believe God’s whole nature which includes judgement as well as love. No one here seems to want to believe the simple clear plan of salvation.
God isn’t cruel. He is holy and sin has a price, Jesus paid it for all of us. The only requirement is that we accept Him in our hearts and believe He shed His blood for us. No one seems to want to accept that. Lekatt is very wrong in saying no one will every be punished. Scores of Scriptures say otherwise but I guess I’m just banging my head on a wall trying to get you to see this. Gotta go to work. Have a great day. In Christ, His4ever
But how can we know that you are right about all this, H4E? for that matter, how can you know that you are right about all this?
Let me introduce you to a fictional guy named Jim; Jim thinks the Bible might be an interesting book, but he doesn’t believe that it’s infallible or fundamentally true (so he’s not automatically going to accept anything that the Bible says regarding God), he’s also not entirely sure that this ‘God’ character is real (so he’s not going to automatically assume that the Bible is God’s infallible word), what will you say to him that would make your worldview stand out over that of lekatt (or anyone else)?