“No,” to the first sentence, and “wrong” to the second.
Almost every business that takes a credit card or a debit card will check the credit limit/bank balance before running the charge. If the charge is prospective (to be incurred later, as with car rentals or hotels), they will “set aside” an amount sufficient to cover the probable charge, just as you and your friend discovered.
But as has already been explained, with a debit card – unlike a credit card – there is NO WAY for the business to confirm that you don’t have other outstanding checks out there floating around that will overdraw your account in the time between when the charge is made and when the charge actually makes it to the bank. In other words, lets say you want to buy a $20 CD. The business checks your account and sees that you have $50, and so allows you to purchase the CD. Unbeknownst to them, however, a $200 check you wrote clears that day, and your account is then severely overdrawn. What is the bank’s recourse then? It has none. That is why banks can be very picky about who they give debit cards to – even more picky in some cases than about who they give credit cards to, because with a credit card you can’t usually write checks or otherwise access the account, so the “balance owed” is almost always accurate. With debit cards, in contrast, it is very, very easy to overdraw an account – you just have to make all the withdrawals before the system can track them all, using a combination of the debit card and paper checks – because they electronic system can only track the former, not the latter. See the difference?
And yes, a debit card is an ATM card, usually. Some ATM cards only allow cash withdrawals from ATM machines, however, and cannot be used as debit cards. I have a single card that can do both, as I think most people do.
After a bad financial time for me, I applied for (and was denied) a Visa Check Card also. I couldn’t understand the logic, but the bank people did explain it. I filled out the application and they held it for 1 year. On that one year anniversary, they checked to see if I had overdrawn my account. I had not, so they granted me the Visa check card.
It was actually harder to get that then a regular interest charging card.
k.os - heh, I just got your name, I think. I have an ATM card, but I don’t believe it works for purchases. I’ve never tried it; if it did work for purchases I wouldn’t really need a cheque card at all. I can’t imagine they’d let me have a multi-purpose ATM card if they fear I’d withdraw/spend too much money.
Bricker - I am in the process of getting ahold of my credit rating, actually. I asked the lady at the bank, when she called and told me about having my request denied, if I could get a copy of my credit report. She gave me the address of a Credit Bureau here in town that I should go to. I’m stopping by there on the way to work, as it is conveniently on the way.
Jodi - Ahh, gotcha. Still annoyed though as I have at max one ‘bounced cheque’ on my record, stupid Pizza Hut. (And might I add, the fees for stopping payment on 32 cheques is incredibly, excruciatingly painful. $12 a piece. Buh.) In the 8 years I’ve banked there I’ve never overdrawn my account. Guh. In your example there would have been a problem no matter what, 'cause of the cheque. Too bad banks don’t take character witnessing into account - everyone who knows me knows I’d never do that!
monster - Mostly for the convenience. I work very late nights and if I notice after work that I need to stop and get gas, I hate having to walk from one brightly-lit area, through a dark area, and into a gas station with Seedy Subversive Types[super]TM[/super], in order to pay. People have been attacked in my work parking lot before, and ever since then I’ve been nervous, and I’d rather stay right there by my car when buying gas, since it’s all nice and bright there.
Also I am going to Australia this winter for a trip, and it would be nice to have a way to access my cheque account without showing 18000 forms of ID or paying incredible fees on foreign ATM machines. I’m jittery about carrying large amounts of cash overseas, and will probably resort to traveller’s cheques instead, but the cheque card would be much nicer. I suppose I could get one of those pre-approved, “0% interest until May 2002, then 23.7% APR thereafter” cards, suck up the annual fee and security deposit, use it while I’m in Australia and then pay everything off when I get home (yeah, I have the money for that, the money itself really isn’t the problem! It’s the method of paying! grumble), and then cancel it after I’ve paid it off but before the 0% interest wears off … but that seems like even more hassle!
Libertarian - apology accepted. Thank you.
Zette - Buh, I haven’t had an overdraught in 3 years! You lucky! And I applied for one ages ago and was denied, so it’s been at least 2 years since I filed that original application. I wish I could get the same deal from them Maybe my bank is just staffed by evil soul-eating demons (that’s my recent theory, anyway) …
One would hope you are looking in a mirror when you say that because all of the problems you related are, in fact, your fault.
That’s the first step in solving the problem, I hope you realize: recognition. The second step, evidently, is to accept your responsibility for that. You, again evidently, have yet to progress beyond the average 4-year old’s understanding of that concept: NONE.
That’s amazing: you blame two other groups of people for your own failure. When you applied for the loan, there’s a little thing known as the loan agreement. Whip out your copy (or if you irresponsibly tossed it out, read the bank’s copy). You will notice that nifty little bit in there where you agree to inform the bank of your change of address. In any event, the bank presumably still has the same address and you are not absolved from making your payments just because you didn’t receive a little reminder in the mail. The reminder is a convenience, a courtesy. It is not a necessity.
Wasn’t aware you could just rent pot. Seriously, though, instead of stashing the cash in the wrong place, perhaps the bank would’ve been a better site for the money until you could fork it over to the landlord. After all, the bank is obviously a lot more responsible with funds than you appear to be.
First rule of thumb with stolen checkbooks: CONTACT YOUR BANK THE SECOND YOU NOTICE IT’S STOLEN AND ISSUE STOP PAYMENTS FOR EACH AND EVERY CHECK THERE. Then shred all the checks you currently have at home and have the bank issue you new checkbooks with numbers very far off of the old checkbooks.
Out here in California, it’s against the law to drive without insurance. Whatever your rationale is for not paying your insurance, you are not absolved from obeying the law.
I know you are irresponsible, if this “rant” is any indication.
For “creditor fucks,” read “those individuals or entitities which I have already promised to repay the money they foolishly entrusted to me.”
Odd that you describe it that way. My checkbooks ran “100-149,” “150-199,” “200-249,” etc. There’s a thing known as “inclusive number” when you’re counting items with serial numbers on them: take the larger number, subtract from it the smaller number, AND THEN ADD ONE to get the actual number of itesm. Fascinating that. Or, perhaps in your “reality” there is such a thing as a physical zeroth item.
Also, the bank could’ve been going off of what you provided in the police report. If you screwed that up (and evidently counting funds and negotiable instruments isn’t one of your strong points), you really can’t legitimately blame the bank.
Who did the police say was at fault in the collision? If 'twas you, tough. If 'twas the other individual, you’re liable for your lawbreaking, but not for the other individual’s faults.
But not guilty enough to prevent that from happening by, say, TELLING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE THAT YOU MOVED?!
Pretty steep interest there, friend. Don’t interest rates like that only get shopped to those who need “no credit/bad credit” deals?
Although it’s called a check card (or “cheque card”), it’s still a type of credit card. Read that word once again: CREDIT. C-R-E-D-I-T. Look it up in a dictionary. Understand what the word means. Then look at your complete (or nearly complete) lack of fiscal responsibility.
TDB. That’s short for: TOO DAMN BAD. Check cards do not, repeat: do not, work just like checkbooks. They work just like credit cards except for one little thing: the money is taken out of your checking account immediately (or almost immediately). The credit card issuing company doesn’t wait around for you to get off of your fanny and send the payment to them.
Clearing a credit report is, in most cases, a misnomer. What one does is re-establish good credit. Paying stuff you shouldn’t pay isn’t on the menu for doing that. Once you start paying someone’s bills for them, in many cases you become legally responsible for those bills. That’s almost like cosigning a loan with someone you know full well isn’t going to repay the loan. Guess who gets stuck, legally, for the repayment: YOU.
Lame ending to a lame, and irresponsible, rant.
Too bad you don’t appear to be learning any responsibility at college.
V E R Y I M P O R T A N T H I N T F O L L O W S :
PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYERS WANT TO HIRE RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE.
BTW, good luck on the job hunt when you get around to graduating.
Yes, that was a snide comment.
Oh, and Lib really didn’t have anything to apologize for. "Twas you who brought up the subject, in The Pit no less, of your finances.
I think they would be more likely to give you a multi-purpose ATM card than a Check card. With an ATM card, you only have access to the available money in your account. Of course, you can still write checks that could be overdrawn, but the risk for them is smaller, I think. The reason I mention that is that I do not know anyone who has an account and an ATM card that can’t use it to pay for purchases. Maybe it’s a Canadian thing, but you should look into it.
[sub]And for my name, if you made it rhyme with Chaos, you’re probably right… :D[/sub]
Everyone else please skip along. This is going to be a very boring quoting of everything I have said in the thread.
Over here in Indiana it is, too. Have I ever said it wasn’t? Have I ever contested that it was a bad thing to have done? No. Have I ever argued that I was in the wrong there? No. Again, let me quote myself:
Mine were 101 - 150, 151 - 200, 201 - 250, and so on and so forth. But you’re missing the point. Read what they said to me again. (And this is irreparably etched into my mind, because I was so pissed off about it. There is no possibility that I am mistaking what they said.)
**149 - 101 = 48
48 + 1 = 49
200 - 150 = 50
50 + 1 = 51**
So,
You will see that I was in fact right, as proved by your very own formula.
The police report says it is their fault. They got over into my lane without a turn signal notice and without checking their mirrors. They sideswiped my car in doing so. State law in Indiana apparently states that if you are not carrying insurance you are treated as if the accident was your fault.
However, let me reiterate:
When I applied to the out-of-state college I made certain that they knew that I had two addresses, one in St. Louis for use during the school year, and one in Indiana during vacations. When I transferred schools (or did you miss that part, since you seem to have missed so very much in reading this?) I also informed the school of my new address so that they could send transfer paperwork and transcripts to the appropriate places.
But let me, again, repeat myself:
If no loan company ever had me sign papers, it would follow that there was no loan company for me to tell that I had moved, non? I told the school I moved. When they turned it over to the collections people, after sending my previous school-year residence several notices that my family did not tell me about, the collections people simply looked up my address, said, “oh hey, she lives in Indiana, not Missouri, maybe that’s the problem,” and called me. That was all I needed. Once it was clear to me that I owed them money (read the quotes above, perhaps read my third post in the thread, you might understand better) I paid it.
I know you read that one because you quoted it. Yes, interest rates like that only get shopped to those who need “no credit/bad credit” deals. But I bought my car from a reputable Pontiac dealer in the city, not one that only catered to no credit/bad credit deals. And I’ve never had any illusions about my credit rating being bad. I know this. I have stated it a zillion times. So what’s your point, snookie-ookums?
Now, since I am going to be late to work if I prattle on any longer, let me just say:
I’m pretty sure they’re the same thing. So long as the card accesses a checking account, that is. (That’s what makes it a “check card.”) If it accessed a savings account, I guess you’d call it a debit card or a multi-purpose ATM card. But really they’re the same thing. They allow a person to access his or her checking account to pay for purchases using the card, as opposed to writing a check.
Well, this may indicate that you don’t know anyone with bad credit. Or it may indicate your bank(s) are somewhat laxer in who they will give check cards to. But it is very possible to get a card that allows cash withdrawals from an ATM machine only (an ATM card) instead of a debit card or check card. That’s what many banks do for customers with poor credit, and some banks still have ATM cards only (single use cards) and not check cards (multi-purpose cards).
AFAIK, ATM card = card accessing ATM for $. Check card (debit card) = card allowing one to debit account using the card. Most commonly, a single card will do both (what you call a “multi-purpose ATM card”), but they don’t have to. But I’m pretty sure when CAIATA talks about a check card and you talk about a multi-purpose ATM card, you’re talking about the same thing.
As a Canadian currently living in the U.S.A., let me clear up a bit of confusion here. In Canada, “debit card” equals “ATM card”; someone with an ATM card can use it to make purchases at certain retailers. These retailers have special keypads at the register which are connected to the same network that the ATM’s use (there’s one primary such network in Canada, called “Interac”), and you have to enter your PIN to make a purchase. Any ATM card can be used for this, provided the retailer has the keypad.
In the United States, “debit card” equals “check-card”; someone with a check-card can use it to make purchases at any retailer that accepts Visa. Instead of entering your PIN, you have to provide your signature, like a credit card, but the money is deducted straight from your bank account like a Canadian debit card. Not all ATM cards are check-cards. (I have seen retailers in the States with the keypads, but they’re not as ubiquitous as they are in Canada, perhaps because there’s more than one ATM network in the States.)
So the two concepts are almost the same, but not quite. I personally prefer the Canadian version, as it strikes me as being more secure, but the American version is probably easier for the retailers.
I have nothing substantive to contribute to this thread - I just want to say that that was one of the most egregious cases of jumping in without reading past the OP (or even carefully reading the OP) that I have ever seen.
I just typed out a bunch of mumbo-jumbo and then saw that Math Geek explained it much better than I did.
Caitia, I totally understand why you would want to have a check card. It is really much more convenient than writing checks or making sure you’ve got enough cash to cover your purchase.
Have you checked with your bank to see if they offer the ATM/debit card that others have described?
Also, for your Austrailia trip, it may be worthwhile for you to get one of those credit cards that has a high interest rate. If you have the money to pay off your trip, then you won’t need to worry about the rate. And if you get a credit card and can maintain a good credit rating with it, your bank may be more likely to issue you a check card in the future.
Oops, I forgot one thing I wanted to point out. Like Math Geek said, some merchants allow you to use your ATM card to buy products. You just have to enter in your PIN number to complete the transaction.
I think of it this way:
An ATM/debit card does not have a VISA logo on it
A check card does have a VISA logo on it and is treated like a credit card at the merchant
Both deduct the purchase from your checking account, but a VISA check card is more widely accepted than an ATM/debit card.
Interesting. I have never had to wait for a check card after opening an account, and I have opened several accounts as I’ve moved about and always recieve a debit card as my initial card. I haven’t had an ATM only card since I was 15, and I’ve banked with at least 7 different institutions since then.
I’ve certainly never experienced any type of credit check when opening an account as cheezit describes. Is this common practice in some area?
Many gas stations and grocery stores will accept ATM only cards, you just have to punch in your PIN rather than sign a receipt. Just FYI, though, when given a choice, the bank vastly prefers that you sign rather than provide a PIN. The distinction is important as the routing is different and banks make much higher fees off of the VISA transaction compared to teh ATM transaction (fees that are charged to the retailer).
One further point of clarification, debit cards can be either VISA or MasterCard.
As I reached this thread late in the game, I really have nothing to add to the dicussion save this:
caiata, this is the Pit. Feel free to tell Monty to go fuck himself. I realize you may be refraining from using that type of language for a reason, in which case, pretend I told him that. You really handed his ass to him. Bravo.
As has been said, the bank may be more justified in their refusal of the cheque card than you might have originally known. Even so, I hope everything works out for you. I have had my share of finanical irresponsibility (and deadbeat roomies) as well. I’m glad to see you’ve at least learned from your mistakes thus far.
My credit union will issue either an ATM card, which can be used only for transactions at an ATM machine, or a check-card, which can be used at an ATM machine or at a retailer’s as a debit-card. You can choose either, but they can refuse to give you one if they choose. It is easier to get an ATM card then a check-card. I have a check-card on my personal account. We can’t get a card on our joint account, due to our initial poor management of that account. Someday we may be able to get a check-card on that account, but I’m not holding my breath. I believe they said we could get just an ATM card if we wanted, after some period without any bounced checks.
Our check-cards work through the Visa system and have the Visa logo, but to the best of my knowledge that is a contractual arrangement between my bank and Visa to use the Visa system - my card is not from Visa nor do they determine who gets a card. As it was explained to me, it is similar to having long-distance service on your telephone - the LD company doesn’t lay their own wires, but rather uses the existing lines laid by Bell. (Personally, I’d rather have the PIN-style debit card, but no one has those around here. The banks don’t offer them and, although the major retailers have a number-pad on their machines, the pads don’t work.) I’d say your bank was lying if they told you that Visa had denied your card.
FWIW, I find it unbelievably foul that your bank made you pay to stop checks that had been stolen. I’ve had to pay to stop individual checks that I had written, but when my wallet was stolen last year, my credit union asked for my check numbers and stopped them for no charge when I called to report the incident - I didn’t even have a police report yet.
Another thing to consider with check-cards is their liability for theft and loss. I have no liability for charges made on lost/stolen cards (I think there are some reporting requirements, but I don’t remember the exact details offhand). I verified that specifically before getting the card, because when check-cards came out there was no regulation and many banks would bill the account-holder for all fraudulent charges. Considering the fees for stopped checks, it sounds like something your bank would do.
I sympathize with your plight - I’ve operated on ATM cards for two decades and on my check-card since they came out. I’d miss my card if they took it away, especially since I rarely carry cash.
It’s good to hear that you’ve worked so hard to get your financial situation straightened out. Do follow up on the credit report thing - creditors can really screw you over sometimes. As far as getting a card, if I were you, I’d shop around for another bank. You might not have any more luck elsewhere, but it never hurts to look. And it sure as hell doesn’t sound like your bank is doing you any favors.
Well Caiata, I feel for anyone who has financial difficulties, but have absolutely no compassion for those who don’t learn and go on to repeat their mistakes.
Thankfully, it looks like you don’t ever want to go back where you were (in financial terms) and are acting in a way to make sure you don’t. Good for you.
When you get to Australia, things will be a little different. I spent most of this thread going WTF ??? every time the word cheque/check card came up, until one of the Dopers explained it. Sort of.
Aside : (extra points for spelling it how us Aussies do, but you’re not in Oz yet… wouldn’t it be easier to spell it the accepted way in your country, and change to “cheque” when you get here ?)
Only old people and businesses use cheques still. For purchases, we use three major forms of payment.
Cash - do I have to explain ?
Debit card - a card linked to your bank account which allows you to withdraw money at ATM’s and pay for things at shops, using a PIN (a number)
Hi, Opal !
Credit card - where you can pay for things by signing for them with money that you may or may not have. (but are supposed to pay back!)
As you can see, we are pretty simple down here in Oz, hehehe. Hopefully there will be no problems with money while you are here. If there is, you seriously need financial help, as the exchange rate between USD and the South Pacific Peso is hilarious at the moment !
Let us know when you are coming ! and good luck getting your credit sorted, though quite often they won’t listen and you’ll just have to play a waiting game…
Sure did. I noticed where you appear to say you recognize something’s your fault, you actually fail to say that the actual issue at hand, your financial irresponsibility (failure to pay your fucking bills on time, idjit) is the reall issue.
It’s a piss-poor rehasing of a lame-ass whine.
Gee. Regardless of whose fault it is you moved in with a deadbeat, it’s still your fault that you failed to take action on your outstanding debts.
And not understanding the nature of the work-study program? Bullshit. Either (a) you read the application/information and failed to understand it, in which case you shouldn’t be in college, or (b) you failed to read the application/information before signing it/agreeing to it, in which case tough. Read stuff before you sign it. Contracts can be nasty things.
Oh, wah! Poor you. Isn’t it a pity someone expected a freaking college student to understand a program for which there are applicatins with, get this, information?!
Might want to consider changing banks. Mine doesn’t charge for stop-payments on stolen checks.
Over here in Indiana it is, too. Have I ever said it wasn’t? Have I ever contested that it was a bad thing to have done? No. Have I ever argued that I was in the wrong there? No. Again, let me quote myself:
[quote] You say:
Also, an illegal act. So you really shouldn’t expect any sympathy for that either.
Cool. Glad at least one thing’s almost working out for you. Now start doing the responsible thing and don’t pay for the ones you know are stolen. Talk to the head cheese at the bank if you have to.
The police report says it is their fault. They got over into my lane without a turn signal notice and without checking their mirrors. They sideswiped my car in doing so. State law in Indiana apparently states that if you are not carrying insurance you are treated as if the accident was your fault.
However, let me reiterate:
Well, there’s the whole bit about labor charges, no doubt. You, if at fault (even if the law presumes you to be at fault for being on the road without insurance), are responsible for not only the cost of the repairs themselves, but also for the cost of the labor attached to said repairs.
{Snip a lot of whining}
Well, gee. Places where I’ve done business, and even one place where I worked (a collection agency), advised folks to announce change of addresses like that. After all, it’s still your freaking responsibility to pay the bill even if you don’t get the damn bill in the damn mail.
It’s probably a blame sight better than haning out with you.
God only knows who’s going to get stuck with the bloody bill.
