sorry.
16.8% of the murders were committed with “unknown or other dangerous weapons.” I’m willing to bet at least one of these was a fresh fruit. It was probably a pineapple, but could have been a kiwi.
Hell, 6.7% of the killings were with “personal weapons” meaning parts of the body (hands & feet are specifically mentioned). Edged weapons of all kinds were used less than twice as much as no weapon at all.
Back to the OP- I used to have a Buck Slimline myself. Unfortunately, it slipped out of my pocket and I never saw it again. Good luck on the knife rehab.
With respect to astro, I apologize. The ‘ass’ comment was un-called for. I felt the kiwi-comment was mis-leading, taken out of context and judgemental towards me, so I did the offended response thing. Sorry.
I do believe I did counter the OP effectively, without a strawman.
“what a poor and stupid weapon a pocketknife truly is”
Disagreement met with my posts and cites. It is a good and useful weapon that meets many criteria- portability, effectiveness and reliability.
“a pocket knife really is not designed for fighting with”. Again, my posts and cites show that this is not necessarily true. A pocket knife blade adds anywhere from 1" to 4" on your reach and is designed for one main purpose- cutting things. How you apply these designs is up to you, but they work quite well in causing grievous harm to someone if the situation arises.
To the semantics of the debate, when I think of ‘poorly’ I think of something that barely works, if at all. However, in this case, we are not talking about barely working. They do in fact work, albeit some other designs are ‘better’. We’re not talking Yugo vs. Ferrari, we are talking about Toyota vs. Lexus, i.e. the differences are not disproportionately great.
One thing I noticed about your comments was that it seems you look at knife fighting as a mainly stabbing thing. This is not true at all. I can stab someone with a sharpened stick, but a knife has an advantage that I prefer to use- it is sharp! It cuts better than it stabs. If you think of my original example, a stab to the forearm would suck, but a 12" long 1" deep slash there is fatal.
My main problem with the remarks made were that I felt it would setup a bad situation. If you really don’t think a pocket knife is good to fight with, and someone pulls one on you, what assesment will you make? I would conclude that someone might look at it and go [annoying French accent]“Not to worry, 'tis but a pocket knife.”[/annoying French accent].
Take care-
-Tomcat
I love this board, and Scylla, you rock!
First, you find the perfect valentine gift for Mr. Singular, although the dog still shudders when the blimp drifts near, and now you’ve given me an idea for his birthday gift! Since he’s a knife collector and customizer, I’m sure that Tri-Angle Sharpmaker wil make a cool birthday present! I would’ve never heard about either if you hadn’t enlightened me!
Thanks!
Even though most pocket knives aren’t specifically designed for a fight, they’re still quite deadly even in less experienced hands. Pocketknives are not slow to open; the vast majority of folding knives have a thumb stud, disc or hole which allows the knife to be opened one handed and in an instant. I can open most folding knives with a speed that rivals switchblades, and most people can learn to do so within a few minutes of practice.
Even though a short blade may not be as useful in a fight as a long one, when you consider the number of people who don’t carry anything at all, it doesn’t make much of a difference. A short blade against skin will do as much damage as a long blade against skin. I have no cites as to the percentage of people who carry knives, just personal experience, but from what I’ve seen it’s very low.
As noted above, not having a stabbing point isn’t a detractor. A curved blade is excellent for slashing, and a sheepsfoot or hawksbill blade even better, as they’ll catch and tear. A tanto tip, which is becoming more common, is an excellent stabbing tip, though less useful for slashing. Basically any edge style has its ups and downs, but they’re all useful in one way or another.
The lack of a tang doesn’t make a lot of difference. The locking mechanisms of a decent knife are very, VERY strong, though admittedly on cheaper knives they can slip. Similarly, I wouldn’t use a reverse grip on even a fixed, tactical knife, as I feel it’s too much of a compromise in terms of reach.
So, yeah. While I wouldn’t want to take my little folder into a fight against a peacemaker, I’m confident it’d hold its own.
And regarding swiss army knives, are you talking about the locking ones? Most don’t lock, and if you were fighting with one and it got hit at the wrong angle, you’d give yourself a good gash across the backs of your knuckles. Not fun.
I always carried Barlows, preferably with the single blade. Hand sharpened under tap water with one of those small whetstones (the kind where you move the whetstone against the stationary blade).
I wonder if anyone makes a decent-quality model with all parts of either ceramic or plastic?
Ooh, knife talk! I collect them too, in a rather haphazard way. I’ve got two Swiss Army knives (1 big, 1 little), a big Bowie knife, an SAS commando knife, 4 bayonets (2 German, 1 Russian, 1 Japanese), a couple hunting knives, and a cheesy faux-medieval “feasting dagger”. I used to have a butterfly knife and a cool wood-handled dirk, but I lost the former, and gave the latter as a gift to a girlfriend. I hope I never have to use one to actually, you know, maim anyone…but they’re fun to have.
Anyway, pocket knives…I carry my CRKT M16-14Z (It’s the top one in that picture) everywhere. It’s come in handy more times than I can count. Most often for opening CDs and DVDs, but I’m quite sure it would be a nasty weapon if I ever needed it to be.
The blade is exactly 3.99" long (hence legal to carry), but the way the handle is designed, it actually gives you closer to 6" of extra reach. Lovely little piece of engineering.
Your threads are always interesting, Scylla. You say something big, using something small, and then the entire thread ends up being dedicated to the small thing.
And someone always mentions groundhogs. As great a story as it was, if I was you I’d have disowned it by now just so that it didn’t have to be brought up in every single thread…
I want a pocket knife now!
So, are pocket knives good for killing "Evil Nazi Groundhogs"™?
**
Well, yeah. Sometimes.
Some people are cursed that the bad deeds and the evil that they do follow them forever. I’m very happy and lucky to be remembered here for the best of what I do. No complaints on that score.
There are only a few very small areas where you can stab or slice somebody with a pocketknife and stop them instantly. It is impractical to hit those areas in an actual combat situation.
Aside from the psychological factor, if any, a knife cut will be immediately debilitating only very rarely. Hitting exposed flesh is not easy, and a determined and intelligent opponent will plan on getting cut or stabbed by you in the process of the fight. He is likely to be able to chose the place of the cut and it will likely cost you a lot more inflicting it than he will receive getting cut. Given the opportunity, he will wrap the forearm in a jacket of shirt or what have you and turn it to protect the veins. When you lunge and cut he’ll take it in the meat of the arm hoping to snag the knife, but will be in perfect position to do you grievous and immediate harm whether or not the knife is snagged.
A belt with a buckle gives a much longer reach with a faster more painful impact (a knife cut will likely hurt very little,) that can be inflicted rapidly and repeatedly without exposing or committing oneself.
Finally, as you stab or cut someone you are likely to end up in a grapple. From the extended that you use to inflict a knife wound, you are going to be at a disadvantage from a leverage standpoint, standing a good chance of losing the knife and having your opponent have a handle upon both you and the weapon which is a bad situation to be in.
Having a small knife against an unarmed opponent is an advantage, but not a particularly great one. A belt buckle allows one to do damage at standoff range.
A solid pen will inflict a much more ragged and painful and profuse bleeding wound then the relatively clean cut of a knife.
Scylla, I agree with all your points, but…
That’s why a pocket knife is a crappy weapon against a trained martial artist. I’m not convinced the same argument applies against, say, a group of teenaged hoodlums. I think your average pack of bullies would tend to be discouraged by a nasty, bleeding cut to the forearm.
Of course, simply having a knife would usually be enough in those situations.
Ferrous:
I think the guy that pulls a pocketknife against a gang of hoodlums has made a very poor decision. The simple fact is that in the heat of a physical fight, your opponent is unlikely to even notice that he’s been cut, and you are going to be wasting valuable energy and effort trying to use that knife. It’s energy that could be better spent running, defending yourself, or doing something meaningful to your opponent, like seeking to daze or unbalance him or incapacitate him with some debilitating pain.
The biggest problem of all in pulling a knife is that you are escalating the stakes of the battle to an extreme level for very little advantage. You are in a sense saying that it is a fight to the death. If you do not win, or have the knife taken away from you, or if your opponent posesses an equal or better weapon you stand a very good chance of dying.
If you simply inflict a serious wound on your opponent, be he still gains the advantage you are going to be in store for some serious payback.
Personally I would rather get stomped by some hoodlums than pull a knife, try to win, and get killed.
In just about any imaginable scenario trying to use a pocketknife as a weapon is an extremely stupid idea.
But what if you get attacked by a squad of slug thugs, and you have a knife made of salt? I’m trained in slugjitsu, using both the saltchete and Naclchuks, and I feel safer carrying them.
Gonna have to agree with Scylla on this one.
Chandeleur, you’re boring and unoriginal. It was mentioned forty posts before yours.
Scylla, again, you make good points. I don’t completely disagree with you, but…
It just seems to me that you have a bit better chance of defending yourself, or inflicting pain, if you have a sharp object in your hand. As you say, it’s not a big advantage, but it’s an advantage. I’ve also had some martial arts training, and I know the techniques used against a knife wielding opponent. I also know that they rely, to a large extent, on the knife wielder behaving stupidly. If he’s smart, and denies you the chance to grab his knife arm, for example, you’re in trouble. (You don’t extend yourself in wild, swinging arcs or stabbing motions. You use short, controlled motions.)
Not too many years ago, I would have agreed with you completely. But now that I’m getting older and slower, I like having a bit of an equalizer. I’m too old and fat to outrun the punks now. 
I absolutely agree with that. I would only draw my knife if I felt that my life was in danger otherwise. I really, really wouldn’t want to cut someone. But if it’s him or me, I like to have the option.
True. But I’m a pretty good grappler. If the other guy is bleeding heavily, I feel that time is on my side…
(By the way, did you click on my link? I’m not talking about a Swiss Army knife here. My folder is a pretty serious piece of metal.)
Boy, I just can’t leave this one alone…And please, I am not dissin’ you, I really think very highly of you Scylla, I just disagree.
I wrote this below, but I’m coming back up here because I think it is important to start. IF YOU HAVE NOT TRAINED IN KNIFE FIGHTING, DO NOT CARRY A KNIFE FOR SELF DEFENSE!!! BIG OR SMALL!!!
There are only a few very small areas where you can stab or slice somebody with a pocketknife and stop them instantly. It is impractical to hit those areas in an actual combat situation.
Agreed, but who said I am trying to stop them immediately? I have never been in a one hit fight, I expect it to go on for some time. At least until I see an opportunity to run.
Aside from the psychological factor, if any, a knife cut will be immediately debilitating only very rarely. Hitting exposed flesh is not easy, and a determined and intelligent opponent will plan on getting cut or stabbed by you in the process of the fight.
Just because someone plans on getting cut, does not mean that they aren’t going to feel pain. Plus, a sharp knife will cut or stab through most clothing.
**He is likely to be able to chose the place of the cut and it will likely cost you a lot more inflicting it than he will receive getting cut. **
First part: If ever I get into a knife fight, I HOPE the guy gives me targets. I will slice and dice him incessantly. I’d love to see someone keep attacking me after I’ve hit his forearm 5 times in under 2 seconds, each cut 1/2 an inch deep. Second part: I am sorry, but that is simply wrong. How in the heck is it going to inflict damage on me?
Given the opportunity, he will wrap the forearm in a jacket of shirt or what have you and turn it to protect the veins. When you lunge and cut he’ll take it in the meat of the arm hoping to snag the knife, but will be in perfect position to do you grievous and immediate harm whether or not the knife is snagged.
“Given the opportunity”…think about that. If he’s given the opportunity, then I probably had an opportunity too, whether to run or to attack.
A belt with a buckle gives a much longer reach with a faster more painful impact (a knife cut will likely hurt very little,) that can be inflicted rapidly and repeatedly without exposing or committing oneself.
First part: Agreed 100%. I’ve actually gone through training with a belt. It is great protection against a knife fighter, but it does have its limitations. Since it is flexible, it is harder to control, especially if you miss the first time. You essentially have to keep it moving in arcs. Parenthesis part: I am sorry, but that is wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong! A knife cut does hurt, and I have the scars to prove it!
Finally, as you stab or cut someone you are likely to end up in a grapple. From the extended that you use to inflict a knife wound, you are going to be at a disadvantage from a leverage standpoint, standing a good chance of losing the knife and having your opponent have a handle upon both you and the weapon which is a bad situation to be in.
YEs and no. Yes, it will go to a grapple, that is what training is for. No, you are not always at a disadvantage. I question if you understand what knife training entails…I don’t forget my Thai boxing or grappling training when I pick up a knife.
Having a small knife against an unarmed opponent is an advantage, but not a particularly great one.
Simply wrong, with training, it is a great advantage. Again, I don’t forget how to fight once I open up my knife. It is an addition, not a complete action in and of itself.
A belt buckle allows one to do damage at standoff range.
Very true.
A solid pen will inflict a much more ragged and painful and profuse bleeding wound then the relatively clean cut of a knife.
Misleading. To accomplish that type of wound you have to really work at it, commiting yourself far more than a blade commits you.
The problem I have with your arguments is that you assume three main things-
- Your opponent will be the Monty Python Knight ('Tis but a scratch!) and will be better trained than you are, with enough time to set an opportunity, calmly thinking through the process of allowing himself to be cut, thus drawing you ever closer so he can unleash his attack upon you when you least expect it. REality: common thug with as much training as the next guy.
- You underestimate the damage a knife can do. I promise you you will think twice about continuing the fight if I slice open your bicep. And that is very easy to do. Profuse bleeding, the inability to move your arm properly and pain. The back of the hand has tendons and veins that can be easily sliced through, as well as the palm. The inside of your forearm and the muscle mass just below the elbow is especially vulnerable, as are the tops of your legs (and I can cut clean through levi’s any day). The neck and face, well, if I can do a quick jab with my fist to the chin, having an extra 3" of reach makes that all the more possible, and those are bad places to get hit. The next time you get a roast, pull out your knife and give it a good whack and look at the damage you can do with one hit. And hit it hard, knock it off the counter, you can always wash it. I’ve done this and was surprised how deep I cut it- well over 1" deep and over 4" long.
- That all other fighting experience and training goes out the window once a knife is picked up. Yes, I agree, 100% that IF YOU HAVE NOT TRAINED IN KNIFE FIGHTING, DO NOT CARRY A KNIFE FOR SELF DEFENSE!!! BIG OR SMALL!!! If you do, you are stupid and deserve to have it used against you. But if you are trained, then it is a very effective weapon to add to your ‘arsenal’ of self defense. It is not the size of your weapon, but how you use it that counts…(Shouldn’t there be a sexual innuendo there?)
For your later escalating post, I agree. It is an escalation that will potentially cause you greater harm, both in the moment and later with the courts. Unfortunately the two situations I mentioned originally were pretty scary- I was on a train near the border of Slovakia with 3 gypsies in front of the compartment door, with my wife behind me, at 6am. We were the only people in that whole section. I had woken to find them just inside the door and had managed to push/yell them out in the hall and grab my knife. If they had tried to come in again, I would have killed the first one. Period. Hopefully that would have given pause to the other two. I had no where to run, and my wife was behind me. (She later remarked that I LOOKED like I was going to kill them, which is why they left) The second situation was escalated by Ukrainian pickpockets on a tram when I tried to stop them from ripping off my friend’s wife. One went for a weapon in his jacket, but I had my knife first. The way he was standing I was planning on pinning his arm and slicing his tricep before he could pull out whatever weapon he had. His two friends I hoped would be dealing with my friends (or vice versa). Needless to say, neither situation would have had many winners.
Take care, I hope you didn’t feel I was attacking you. I apologize if I came across like that.
-Tcat
You know, my father, the one going in for open heart surgery that carried a razor sharp bayonent during two combat tours in Asia for WW2 and Korea, always made fun of the anti-skyjacking procedures. He always said he could hijack a plane with a jack knife. On 9-11, a group of guys proved that was true.
China Guy, my thoughts are with you and your dad. I hope everything goes well for him. Let us know how it turns out.
Now, on to the topic at hand: I am totally ignorant about the subject of knives and fighting with them. First of all, how does one even go about learning such a skill? Secondly, how the hell did we get from pocketknives to knife-fighting? As far as I’m concerned, a pocketknife is a tool. It’s used for opening boxes, for whittling, for ersatz screw-driving, etc. It’s not for stabbing people. It scares me that there are people who look at a little Swiss Army knife dangling from a keychain and start thinking about how it would hold up in a fight.
Look, call me sheltered, call me naive, but knives are fucking scary and if, god forbid, I ever found myself in a situation where someone pulled a knife on me, I’d run my ass off screaming. I know the world is a dangerous place. I’m fortunate enough to live in a quiet rural community with a negligible crime rate. But I have been to some dangerous places in my life, always unarmed, and never once did I even consider picking up a weapon. I understand wanting to be prepared for any situation, but Jesus Christ, walking around with a combat knife in your boot is expecting trouble, it’s like actively looking for it, just daring it to come your way. Who the hell, in civilian life, gets themselves into that much shit frequently enough to even warrant such a mode of thinking?
Please understand, I’m not talking about the people who keep a pocketknife handy for various daily chores. I’m talking about the people who wander the streets with a Bowie knife concealed on their person just waiting for some hapless thug to hassle them. I’ve met a few of these people, and it seems like there’s a few in this thread, and they scare the living shit out of me. Is the possibility of killing another human being really worth defending your personal possessions?
Maybe I sound like an asshole here. For that, I apologize. Truly, I’m not trying to offend anyone, it’s just that that whole “self-defense/any object can be deadly” school of thought is so far beyond me, I cannot rationally understand it. Please help me to do so. Thanks for your time.
sigh This thread makes me wish I still had my Swiss Army knife. One of my ex-roommates borrowed it. When I got it back it was gunked up with what appeared to be sand…