My roommate knows (and doesn't know) the weirdest things

In My Humble Opinion
181

I thought you might like that. It came across in the OP. I am trying to toss you a lifeline out of the debate while still getting to keep your dignity about the mocking :slight_smile:

Uh, forgiven, but your reasons are not convincing either. If you are offering a comparison of two vague places, and asserting that you live in and understand one of them, but leave it open about the other, while asserting that is the only possible way to frame the issue, well, that is going to come up short in any debate. It is bordering on, or is, a fallacious framework to start with.

Really, take the lifeline, say there is more than one way to think about it, and then in penance give us 4 more stupid mocking things your roommate believes! :smiley:

Fair?

182

Hrng. You have a point there. The South really is kind of hard to define; history plays an important part, but it’s not just a matter of who was in the Confederacy. Oklahoma wasn’t admitted at all until 1907, long after the war ended, but I think you could make a pretty good argument that it is in the South.

Other weird things my roommate believes:
The Republican Party has moved to the left in the past few years, and the only meaning of conservatism is wanting things to go back to the way they were.
Every news channel is incredibly biased.
Pretty much everyone has played Zelda, Mario, and Megaman.
Putting a lot of work into being lazy is not oxymoronic.

183

Captain Carrot, whether you like it or not, VA – the entire state – is *factually *a Southern state. You are bemoaning your roommate’s perception of the culture in the Northern part of this Southern state. Somehow, you value your own perceptions over his and are trying desperately to prove that your perceptions somehow negate facts. They do not. You do not perceive Northern VA as a Southern culture, fine. It does not negate the simple *fact *that it is a Southern state. Is it really that important to you that your perception is all that is and ever shall be? If so, I think you might have posted on the wrong message board.

Just sayin’…

184

I already have, repeatedly. I have indicated my opinions come from my experience or from a point of view, and that it appears the OP or your opinion does too, albeit from a different (limited IMHO) point of view. The limit seems to be to me that no other points of view are allowed other than NoVa is no longer southern.

Yet, in teh way the OP posits, it is contiguousin every modern sense with NoVa. didn’t used to be, but NoVa grew North, and Montgomery County grew south, and now I hear it is all filled in with only a river between them.

So what I wonder is, if the current cultuure as OP defines it is the same, why is there a debate in NoVa? Envy?

Not the same question really. Maryland, being a border state, had split loyalties during the Civil War. Look up the lyrics of the State song sometime. also see the list of “Southern genteel” neighborhoods in Baltimore, and there are many more throughout the state, urban and rural.

But maybe the real difference is that NoVa participates at the state government level with the rest of VA, even if they associate more closely culturally with MD these days (which may in fact be true). Maybe they should seek to switch - I am sure MD would welcome the tax base!

Even so, I don’t think that will change whether it is southern or not, because as you point out, culturally MD does in fact still have southern pockets. Even becoming part of MD will not make NoVa “not Southern”.

Just deny history by disassociating a large part of the state (area wise and economic power-wise) from the state’s history.

No, it’s the mere statement of fact that current conditions can be different from history. VA will always be among the block of states identified as “the South” in US history. Are you suggesting otherwise?

Sure, but it is still France, and still Europe if you want to go back before there was France. France as a whole, and Frecn cities as a part, carry the burden of history forever, even from prior regimes. Not picking on the French, that is true anywhere, including NoVa.

Then perhaps the OP could have been clearer instead of using a word “South” that carries both cultural connotations and geographic ones.

The silly part is he didn’t get the difference when talking with his roommate, and then repeated the error here.

If he wanted to use a term in parallel with what you wrote above, how would he have done it? Can’t really say “NoVa is not Virginian any more” because that refers to the actual state, not the culture clearly.

So how could he have phrased it better? I personally don’t know if it can be phrased in a pithy manner in English, can you think of something?

185

Well done! You have a weird roommate.

186

Oh, for the love of fuck, there is no such thing as “factually Southern”.

There isn’t a debate in Northern Virginia. I didn’t know that anybody thought it was the South until I went to college.

187

I have no dog in this “what’s the South” debate, but I can certainly see where both sides are coming from.

Face it, the geographic labels for regions in this country are just silly to a newcomer. Draw a line N-S through the country. The region in the middle of the eastern part is called the “midwest.” The southernmost parts of the U.S. aren’t in the “south.” Most people wouldn’t consider our westernmost or northernmost states part of the “northwest.”

For that matter, people seem to feel that everything changes when you cross an invisible, arbitrary line between states. If you go from the southernmost part of a “northern” state to the northernmost part of a “southern” state, the entire culture doesn’t change in 20 miles. The culture of a “red” state that’s 49% Democrat isn’t necessarily different from a “blue” state that’s 49% Republican.

If the people in a northern Virginia feel like they’re in the South, let 'em say they’re from the South. If they don’t, let 'em say they’re from the North. What does it hurt?

188

This sums it up quite well. I like it. If it makes you feel better, you can just Call yourself a Virginian instead of Southern and just have some State pride and that way you can differentiate yourself from the rest of “The South” if you feel better.

Or… you can just stick with the term NoVa. As long as you’re in here (the state), we all know what you mean when you say that- you’ll just have to forgive some of the :rolleyes: associations you’ll get because of other NoVa’ans who feel a need to constantly do what you’ve been doing. Gotta love my State :smiley: and all the weirdos in it…
Just amused still finally that others get to see this stuff too and react the same way I did.

189

I don’t know if I’d use the word “incredibly,” but how can a news channel not be biased? I’ve never seen one that isn’t.

190

And I didn’t know anyone who felt a need to separate themselves from a STATE every time it was mentioned until I went to College myself. Do (did) ya go to a State college? That’s a whole 'nother can of worms then too in your choices in that matter as well in the State. :smiley:

191

[hijack]
Hmm.

If your weird roommate ever starts a similar thread, it might start off with this :slight_smile:

Pretty sure Judaism and Christianity were never “essentially the same”. You know, that minor spat thing about Christ being or not being a savior and all, the “new and everlasting covenant” replacing the “old and everlasting covenant”, the oodles of new books for the Bible, minor stuff like that nothwithstanding …

When I come back East, (oh yeah, from here in California, all those states over there look “East”, not “North or South” :slight_smile: ) can we have a party at your house? This seems like a great level of weirdness to have in a household!

[/hijack]

192

Well, that’s the thing, he insists that they’re all really really biased.

I currently go to Virginia Tech, and yes, it does feel different. The atmosphere here is closer to Chamblee, Georgia than it is to Vienna, Virginia.

Okay, I oversimplified, but I was under the impression that when this stuff first started, Christians were kind of regarded as “graduate Jews”.

I live in a dorm, and won’t be rooming with him next year, so no.

193

Care to share where the people you knew had their primary and secondary education? They were aware of NoVa as a region, but didn’t think it Southern? Yikes!

Anyway, I lived in Baltimore and my sister in Arlington apparently before you got there, ISTR that this debate existed at that point too.

In my mind, the dividing line between South and North runs right through where that Air Florida plane hit the bridge.

Thank you ladies and gentleman, I will be here all week :slight_smile:

194

Well bless your heart right back.

And no such limitation has passed my lips.

Do you realize that “the Civil War” is not the sole issue here? After I’ve been schooled in this thread repeatedly about the Mason-Dixon-Demonstrandum, I can’t fail to notice that it runs along the northern border of Maryland.

This sentence has absolutely no meaning whatsoever.

I will even go so far as to suggest that it is conceivable that American culture develop to a point that no block of states be identified as “the South.”

The fact that “the South” as a cultural term can be very roughly correlated with “south” the compass direction is more arbitrary and accident than anything else. Do you sit with a compass and straight edge to define “the South” in strict geographical terms? Do you posit that Phoenix and Los Angeles are “Southern” cities? No, because it’s not a geographical question. Chillicothe, Ohio, is south of the latitude of the Mason-Dixon line. Why is it not “the South”? Because “the South” is not primarily a geographic concept.

195

How about some facts?

Let me Googlethat for you.

List of Southernstates according to Wikipedia.

List of Southernstates according to city-data.com.

Article on invasive plants of the “Thirteen SouthernStates.”

Please, feel free to provide cites showing that VA is not a Southern state and I may reconsider the facts. Until then, understand that there are facts here that have absolutely nothing to do with your need to believe your perceptions to be reality. They are not. Culturally, I perceived MT to be far more “Southern” than TN, but factually, it is not a Southern state while TN is. If you truly have such difficulty differentiating fact from perception, then I honestly suggest you do not ever do LSD.

Just sayin’…

196

Heh. Silly Techie… :stuck_out_tongue: I’ll type slower for you.
Though my sister seems to like the school and is interested in it. So I guess I shouldn’t mock it too much- but yeah, I can see how you’d get a nice lil’ culture shock for ya. Shoulda gone to UVa. :smiley: But then again, I suppose you might actually want a Football team that WINS things. :smack:

Or you coulda done the smarter thing- and picked W&M: a school that doesn’t sweat the whole Civil war issue, cuz hey, they’re hung up on the REVOLUTIONARY WAR still. North… South? Who cares, we’re all Virginians and we’re all AMERICANS! Darn those British and their taxation and their tea!

Ah… I love my State. :slight_smile: No hard feelings though, Captain. I may have given you a hard time in here, but honestly I don’t really care all that much. IF you think you’re in the right, who am I to really try to destroy your bliss? Though, I think this is a MUCH better hijack then going back to discussing the Tolkien Issue and WWII. Totally not an Allegory. JR himself said it somewhere in his book. Maybe the foreword? Not sure, maybe someone with more information will be able to come along and clear that one up for ya.

197

Then he wouldn’t be going to school in Virginia. :smiley:

198

Note that all of those lists are different, though they do all have Virginia, among other states, in common.

I am not claiming that Virginia, as a whole is not a Southern state, though it seems to be more border these days. My statement is that one part of Virginia, the several counties nearest to the District of Columbia, is not emotionally part of the South.

My sisters said I wouldn’t enjoy UVA. Too preppy. And my decision to go here had nothing to do with sports, actually.

199

Hmmm didn’t see that coming.

OK, I think like a fine wine, as you age, so will your opinion become more nuanced.

I spent the night in Blacksburg the night before I drove to Tennessee as I mentioned earlier. I recall a massive massive traffic jam, fortunately mostly in the other direction, because some military trucks managed to drop their loads of ordnance on the highway. Nice - bombs on the road in the morning, greetings from the KKK in the afternoon, that was just the start of an eventful trip. Trouble got progressively worse the further west I got :slight_smile:

Might I suggest reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?

It is a complex book, framed as a road trip, worth several readings, but on first reading I wonder if you pay attention to to the part where he talks about why he likes a motorcycle instead of a sedan - the feel of the road, the contact with the air, the connection with a sense of place. Try to keep that in mind as you drive from Blacksburg to Vienna and back next time - watch how the air changes, the infrastructure changes, the plants change, the ground changes. See if you can feel that in the culture of a place, even passing through, or in the interactions with people if you stay there long enough to interact.

You can develop a fine eye for this stuff, and it makes driving less boring. If you do, you will see that NoVa does retain something Southern about it, even as distinct as across the Potomac in MD.

Just as I learned when you hike in the mountains of the Peninsula part of the Bay Area, you can tell which tectonic plate you are on, and some trails straddle teh faults back and forth!) by the flora and geology, you can see that NoVa is not the same as MD or anywhere else, but that in some very real senses, not just culturally, it belongs with and associates with, and is associated with the places south of the Potomac.

Might want to be careful where you actually verbalize that, just saying. That one is not going to make anyone happy :slight_smile:

Knowing you are in a dorm, I excuse all of the above as folly of youth. That is what college is for - to be exposed to stuff that will rattle the way you think about things.

My freshmen year dorm roommate, being from an upstate NY town that was a suburb of Burlington Vermont :), was a big Frank Sinatra fan, while I was more interested in expanding my horizons with much newer music. There was not enough mocking in the world for him. But I later came to appreciate more styles. Still, I don’t get how an 18 year old in the late 70s was a Sinatra fan first and foremost, and Perry Como next.

200

That’s the silliest part of this whole discussion. Virginia isn’t even on the border! That pesky Maryland is in the way.

It’s funny–I never really thought about it before, but I could probably get across the Mason Dixon line faster than most of those folks in northern Virginia. I practically live in the South! Maybe I should start styling myself as a Southern belle. (Somebody get me a straw hat and a mint julep STAT!)

Well said.

Of course there is. I just don’t understand why you can’t accept it.

So what? I didn’t know that Asians weren’t considered “white” until I got to college. Ignorance fought.