Yeah, the environment is NOT an uncontroversial topic. On the one hand you have the “Won’t somebody please think of the trees!” Lorax types. And on the other hand, you have people responding to claims of the rape of the environment with “Well. Bitch was asking for it!”
Uncontroversial as a controversy appropriate for 4th graders, perhaps?
Uh, what? I’m pretty sure that hate speech is legal. I can walk downtown right now and say whatever racist, bigoted, or otherwise hateful things I want. I can publish tracts condemning people on the basis of race, creed, or sexual orientation, and this is perfectly legal. The only way that this would become illegal is if I’m inciting someone else to violence or riot by doing so or if I’m being obnoxious enough about it to fall under “disturbing the peace” statutes. I’m with Contrapuntal on this one.
certainly better if she has to read her letter before the class.
I’m with DtC’s wife on this one. I would be concerned that DtC’s discussion with the daughter would sound to the daughter like Dad says porn is OK. I would be seriously unhappy with someone telling my 10 year old daughter that. As an adult, I recognize that there’s a difference between what’s legal and what’s immoral, and that different people have different beliefs about morality, but I’m pretty sure that 10 year olds have trouble making that sort of distinction. 4th grade is a time with things are Right or Wrong. The first amendment is, of course, important, but I’d definitely save that discussion for another topic.
11-year old nephew was caught at school (along with a bunch of others) trading nude pics via Bluetooth on their cell phones. (Nude pics of adults, not 11 year olds btw).
SIL told me this to frighten me. My lad is currently 8…
My take is that it is not a appropriate subject for a 4th grade class.
It is insightful that your 4th grader chose this, I doubt she can understand what porn really is, and is just repeating things she heard somewhere, which may indicate a bad view of females and by extension herself already exist in her. She seems to be taking out some form of anger against porn to compensate, which may lead to bitterness taking root.
IMHO is it a warning sign, perhaps of abuse of some sort (verbal, physical, sexual), or some sort of disliking her body.
(Totally paraphrasing here, but I think I’m true to his point):
“It’s difficult to be a good parent when your kid doesn’t think like you. But I’m trying.”
-John McEnroe, Tennis Magazine (this month)
When you bring a child into the world, you obviously expose them to your ideas, your philosophy, your religion – as part of their everyday life. That’s where your influence should end. Browbeating your child for disagreeing with you is neither productive nor affective. At the end of the day, you’ve created a unique individual, not a clone of yourself. Your ONLY role re this assignment was to perhaps look it over for grammatical errors, and praise her on a job well done.
(Oh, and be sure to save such papers for her. They are wonderful to read later, when they’ve become adults.)
I might have considered writing an email to the teacher explaining why she chose the topic. But I would have NEVER debated the topic in front of her, nor would I have attempted to point out the inconsistency in her logic as it relates to the First Amendment. She’s in 4th grade, not a college student, and the nuances of the constitution can be explored later when she’s had more life experience and perspective. For now, just sit back and enjoy the simple-minded child that she is.
This isn’t the first time you’re going to disagree with her (or your wife). Your overarching and consistent message should be that they both are loved and supported even when they don’t think like you. Like most hot topics, each side of the pornography issue has valid points. And there’s room for disagreement among people who respect each other.
I’d ask her to change her topic to non-porn then let her write whatever she wants under that topic.
This is pretty much what I was going to say. Your duaghter should be encouraged to write about what she’s interested in, but, also, you’re correct to try to explain the 1st Amendment to her, and that the chasm between “I don’t like that” and “there oughtta be a law!” is great and wide. If she truly is a bright 10 year old, the concept is not too nuanced: “Yes, porn is often a terrible, horrible thing, but a law banning porn might *also *be a bad thing.”
Based on what Diogenes said, it sounds like the 4th grader is just picking up on the anti-porn attitude expressed by her mom. Whether your comments apply to the mother is an open question.
We are in total agreement here. In fact, when my kids have had to do “persuasion” speeches/papers I have advocated they choose the side opposite their personal beliefs in order to learn more about the opposition side.
So why do you sound happy about this? :dubious: What a great future he has–swapping nudey pics with his buddies. You will be so proud. :rolleyes:
I have an 11 year old son who dislikes intensely having to change into his gym uniform in front of other kids. Not all 11 year olds 1. have cell phones or 2. are sexually precocious.
Porn is not appropriate topic for 4th grade; I find it a bit odd that she’s interested in it at all. That said, she is FULLY entitled to her own opinion about her understanding of it. All this talk re FA etc is just so much noise above her head. What she got from that is that Daddy likes porn and Mommy doesn’t and that this homework assignment and porn seems to make for tension in the home–that does not help your “side” of thing. Nor does your wife’s extremeness, if she is so extreme in her views.
Is this something that really needs to be in her world at present?
Dio, there is a chance that her opinion won’t change (I have no idea; I’m just speculating)–what then? Is she “wrong” or “misguided” or to be compared to Dworkin (who sounds like a nutter rather than a feminist)? It’s her life; she may choose to live it anti-porn and be fine with it. One thing she probably could live without is knowing about her Dad’s predilection for it. I’m 47 and prefer not to know if my father indulges. It’s just not a topic that needs discussion between children and parents (personal tastes, I mean). YMMV.
Sheesh… ok… I blame the lack of tone in email / forums. (My nephew got in trouble).
No, the smiley was referring to my SIL’s evil sense of humour – having my brother tell me about it so that I could be worried about what my boy will be up to in a few years.
On the other hand – and not wanting to get all obnoxious suggesting US = prudery – while I do not think its appropriate for my nephew to be trading nude pics at school, I don’t think it’s a huge crisis either. True, I was couple of years older than him before Playboys started circulating at my (all boys) school – but this was back before mobiles and the internet, and any porn was much harder to get… and had to be swiped from older brothers or Dad’s sock drawer.
Ohh… I hated… I do hate changing in front of other people and am quite shy. And I get that many kids aren’t sexually precocious… (actually if they all were then none of them would be…)
I was responding to the questions around “how does a 10 year old even know porn exists” by offering an example. <shrug>
One of my old girlfriends is a 5th grade teacher and I asked her if this would ring any bells if she got a paper that had a big open ended subject… about porn.
She said, “What the hell? I would have to report that immediately.”
Not to get into the whole tiff about the thing with your wife (I think you are right) but you should probably make her write the paper on something else, or at the very least, meet with the teacher and explain to her that she came up with this on her own.
My ex told me that this paper might have to be read to class, and you probably don’t want to start a big huge ruckus when a bunch of kids come home and ask their mommies “Whats porn? There was a assignment in class about it.”
She can’t write about ending the war or free hospitals or something?
Wow. That’s kind of creepy. I mean if a very young child wrote about an instance of sexual molestation or drew something they probably shouldn’t know about, reporting sounds normal. But just saying that they are against porn? It’s not like they’re talking about how great porn is and how Max Hardcore is their fave director. This just seems a little big brotherish to me.
She is. She changed it to the environment.
I didn’t even know porn existed when I was that young!
Absolutely. She’s at the age where she’s starting to have crushes on boys (or girls!) and beginning to think about the world of S-E-X and trying to fit her mind around it. Her friends are talking about when they’ll start their periods - maybe some have started already. She is eager to grow up, she’s probably starting to get some stirrings, and they feel good but also they’re SCARY and make her feel out of control - of herself, mostly, but also because romance and sex and growing up are big and huge and powerful things, and she has no choice whether she will be in that world or not. She will, time will put her there. In time, men will see her as a woman. So she sees some porn on the internet, and projects herself into it - would I like doing that? Do I want to be like that lady? Will I enjoy it? Is that what it’s like being a woman, having men look at you like that and want to do those things to you? Is that what Johnny Bates really wants from me, when he chases me and tries to kiss me? Is that who I will be?
So because she knows she-as-she-is wouldn’t want that (and of course not, she’s still a child) and not having the experience to project herself forward and realize that perhaps a woman might not mind it, of course she sees porn as something that is always bad.
Does that make sense? I know it’s not 100%, but this feels like it’s accurate.
I’m a little disappointed she changed topics. I wanted to hear about the parent teacher conference that ensued.
Your daughter has been given an assignment and she is trying to carry it out. I don’t see anything wrong with challenging her beliefs by telling her about the first amendment, as long as you don’t forbid her from expressing her true opinion.
I have a real problem with your wife, though. Not so much with her dislike of pornography, but in her assumption that you couldn’t possibly be honest in your disagreement, and her willingness to resort to emotional blackmail.
BTW, it seems likely to me that your daughter got the idea for this topic from your wife.