NASCAR: Time to admit that Earnhardt Jr. is not the driver his father was?

Cafe Society
1

I’m new to NASCAR fandom. I’ve been keeping casual track of it for years, because my older brother is a fan and I like to have some general knowledge so we can discuss it, but this season I’ve come to really enjoy it, thanks to Uncommon Sense’s thread inviting one and all to join a fantasy NASCAR league. “Sounds kinda nerdy,” I thought; “Count me in.”

Anyway, this introduction is presented to make clear that I don’t really know how past seasons have gone. All I know is what I’ve seen this year, and what I’ve seen is that Dale Earnhardt Jr. appears to be a big bust. The guy gets massive credibility and attention, but this season, at least, he’s pretty consistently failed to perform. He’s no Clint Bowyer, anyway.

I know Junior’s had some off-track troubles, with DEI and that whole mess. But surely he’s not throwing races on purpose? Is he refusing to take risks that next season, when he’s got his company started up, he’ll be willing to take? Or is his great reputation just due to the near-universal (among NASCAR fans) adoration for his father?

Thanks; I look forward to reading the SDMB’s take on this.

2

I never thought Dale Sr. was all that great of a driver. Just very, very popular.
Dale Jr. is a good driver and has been hindered by DEI and their lousy engines.
He would probably be in the chase this year is he didn’t have, what, 4-5 blown engines. A DNF (did not finish) really, really hurts in the points standings.

He’s swithching teams to Hendrick Motorsports (who build incredible cars, Gordon, Johnson) after this season so I guess it will be time to put up or shut up come the Daytona 500.

He’s still the most popular driver out there (at least by most merchandise sold) and people will always hold onto that Earnhardt name as the guy they’re going to follow.

I’d still say he’s among the 10 best drivers out there. The best being Gordon, Johnson, & Stewart.

3

As a long time NASCAR fan, I think you are way off base. I have never heard of anyone comparing him to his father, in fact when he first started in Cup racing, it was pointed out that he was not his father and was not expected to be like his father. His early success was actually a surprise especially considering DEI was not considered one of the premier teams. I think there are a couple of reasons Jr. has not had the kind of success the past couple of years. The first is DEI itself, they have not kept up with the latest and greatest advances in racing. They still use the older SB2 Chevy engine, Hendrick and Gibbs both use the later version. Jr. has admitted the DEI chassis department is behind the times. These are some of the reasons DEI and Childress are teaming up. DEI does not have the same budget as other teams too. Budweiser spends quite a bit to sponsor the 8 car but much of that is through the personal services contract Jr. has with Bud, the amount goint to the team is a bit behind the times. Bass Pro Shops and Menards are far from top dollar sponsors. The lack of money Budweiser wants to spend on sponsoring a Cup team is one of the reasons they are going to Evernham and Kasey Kahne, Bud’s money will be supplemented with money from Dodge and Kahne’s other sponsors.

If you really look at Jr’s season and take away the poor finishes due to blown engines (7 so far) and accidents not his fault (3), he has has a season on par with most of those that are in the chase. True he hasn’t won a race in a while but you can say the same for other drivers too, Mark Martin, Kasey Kahne, Ryan Newman, Elliott Sadler, Bobby Labonte, etc. Plus look at the previous seasons, Jr. and DEI have never really been contenders to win the championship.

I also doubt his current popularity it tied to his father any more. Sr. has been gone almost 7 years, Jr.'s has made himself into what he is today. He is one of the best interviews in the garage and does a lot of promotional stuff a lot of folks don’t read about. Something you will see in the future is a lot more of him in more public type promotions, having Bud as a sponsor held back some of the things he could do promotion wise. Hendrick has a much bigger marketing department than DEI. Jr. is going from a big fish in a small pond to a big fish in a huge pond, he is not going to be expected to carry the whole organization like he did at DEI.

4

Dale Jr. is not, and has never been one of those drivers you genuinely expect to have a shot at winning every week. On the superspeedways (Daytona, Talladega) if he got anywhere near the front everyone else was in deep trouble, but anywhere else… not so much.

However, he has massive personal popularity for reasons I haven’t entirely figured out yet. I would be willing to say that about 50% of the people that buy his and Jeff Gordon’s merchandise are very casual or very new NASCAR fans, and like them because they are the only drivers they can identify.

I don’t dislike him, though, and I certainly don’t think he is throwing races or even trying less to win. I do think he’ll be in the mix to win more often next year, and have far fewer blown engine/massive mechanical breakdowns in the upcoming years, but don’t think he’ll be a championship threat.

As compared to his father… well, the first race I ever watched was the '01 Daytona 500, which is the race Dale Sr. died in. My basis of comparison is a little small for any worthwhile conclusions to be drawn.

5

[QUOTE=Hampshire]
I never thought Dale Sr. was all that great of a driver. Just very, very popular.

[/QUOTE]

How do you figure? He won 76 races, and 7 Winston Cups (tied with Richard Petty for most ever). Seems pretty outstanding to me.

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[QUOTE=MilTan]
How do you figure? He won 76 races, and 7 Winston Cups (tied with Richard Petty for most ever). Seems pretty outstanding to me.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but what’s he done lately? :rolleyes:

I’m not really a fan myself, but my ten-year-old son is, so I’ve been exposed to a ton of NASCAR stuff over the last couple of years. One thing I’ve noticed this year is that while Dale Jr. hasn’t finished that well due to blown engines and wrecks that he little or no control over, while he’s still in the race he’s generally running near the front. It’ll be really interesting to see how he fares with Hendrick’s resources behind him next year.

7

[QUOTE=rackensack]
…It’ll be really interesting to see how he fares with Hendrick’s resources behind him next year.
[/QUOTE]

There are definitely expectations, but what will be the reaction be if he stays in the middle of the standings with Hendrick?

8

I’m only a NASCAR fan by marriage and parenthood (in other words, I live in a household of them), but I do think this coming year will tell the tale. I think Jr. gets a good bit of help, popularity-wise, from the name. He is, and always will be, Dale’s son. He’s a bit of a sympathetic figure from his troubles with his stepmother, as a lot of fans think he should have had controlling interest in DEI. And I think some of the rivalry between him and Jeff Gordon contributes to the sales of his merchandise. Fans want to make a statement.

I don’t think he’s a bad driver, or even close. I just don’t happen to think he’s the phenom some want him to be. It will be interesting to see what happens with better equipment and a better team environment. I’m also interested in what will happen to both his and Gordon’s fans when they’re on the same team.

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[QUOTE=Ro Carter]
As compared to his father… well, the first race I ever watched was the '01 Daytona 500, which is the race Dale Sr. died in. My basis of comparison is a little small for any worthwhile conclusions to be drawn.
[/QUOTE]

Whoa. Coincidentally, that’s also the first race I ever watched. Got hooked immediately.

10

Regarding the OP, I think this season actually made a case for Dale Jr. being a better driver and having a much better attitude than most people thought. He has had terrible luck this year. Last Sunday was a perfect example. Through all of the blown engines and bad luck, he’s remained upbeat and professional. His old DEI crew chief (Tony Eury Jr.) has already left for Hendrick Motorsports. Eury Jr. continues to comment on the difference in resources and professionalism he’s finding at Hendrick vs. DEI. Personally I would put Dale Jr. behind drivers like Gordon and Stewart, but on the very next level. He’s not bad.

As far as Dale Sr. not being a good driver, watch some of the old clips and highlights from his career. The talking heads on TV comment today on Tony Stewart’s excellent car control. He has nothing on Dale Sr. in his prime. Some of the saves he pulled out were nothing short of amazing. He wasn’t just about moving people out of his way.

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[QUOTE=RogueRacer]
Regarding the OP, I think this season actually made a case for Dale Jr. being a better driver and having a much better attitude than most people thought. He has had terrible luck this year. Last Sunday was a perfect example. Through all of the blown engines and bad luck, he’s remained upbeat and professional. His old DEI crew chief (Tony Eury Jr.) has already left for Hendrick Motorsports. Eury Jr. continues to comment on the difference in resources and professionalism he’s finding at Hendrick vs. DEI. Personally I would put Dale Jr. behind drivers like Gordon and Stewart, but on the very next level. He’s not bad.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with this; he lost a tire on the final lap last week in a race where he was near the top most of the day, and this after he had pitted earlier in the race for tire troubles. He may or may not be a great driver, but I just don’t see how anyone can use this season as a fair evaluation of his driving ability; the DEI crew is the bigger factor here (which makes me wonder if two-time Busch champion and 2007 cup-chaser Martin Truex isn’t an even better driver than he has shown).

12

You can easily blow an engine due to overstressing an engine, Junior himself even admitted/hinted on at least one of those occasions that he may have contributed to said failure(s).

I’ve been rooting for him ever since Sr. died, but it’s hard. He’s been guilty of several real boneheaded moves in crucial races and situations. At Atlanta I believe it was 3 years ago, 2 Chase races to go, he passes someone for 3rd place in the race. All he has to do to be in prime position for the title is to hold his current position to the end of the race, but instead he tries to merge left before he’s cleared the car he just passed, and wrecks both himself and the other guy. There was no reason at all to be hasty in that situation, but there you have it.

13

[QUOTE=rackensack]
Yeah, but what’s he done lately? :rolleyes:
.
[/QUOTE]

Decomposing. Tough to get into a car when you’re in a box 6 feet down.

Those stats were for Dale Sr., not Dale Jr. Sr certainly would have won at least a few more races, even if he didn’t get any more championships. Certainly one of the greatest drivers in the history of NASCAR.

Jr will do very well in Hendrick cars next year, I can’t wait. He’s really going to show how much skill he has, and how lucky DEI was to have him driving his cars.

I’d also expect Truex to start thinking about a move once he sees how good his ex-teammate is in first-rate equipment.

On another note, the big question for me will be the likes of Stewart & the rest of the Gibbs crowd in Toyotas, and how it will impact the '2nd string Toyotas" like MWR & BDR. Can’t be anything but good for my man Mikey. :smiley:

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Thanks for all the input here folks. I’m really enjoying learning more about the sport as the season wears on.

15

Well, he’s better than Kerry!

He’s not a bad driver, nor is he the only get who gets an amount of face time greater than his accomplishments seem to deserve.

Still, he only has 2 wins since 2004, hsi best season by a long shot. I really thought he’d figured it out that season, pulling off wins at Phoenix, Bristol and a couple other places in addition to his success on the restrictor plate tracks.

He’s certainly not the driver his father was, but I like him. I’ve always liked how he’s handled having the big name.

It will be interesting to see if he says anything extreme about his DEI equipment when he leaves. He’s sometimes sounds like he’s trying to blame his cars for his performance, and a blown engine is sometimes the driver’s fault.

Bu, questions about his ability are going to get tougher if he shows up next year in Hendrick stuff with the same issues, and fails to make the chase again.

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[QUOTE=butler1850]

On another note, the big question for me will be the likes of Stewart & the rest of the Gibbs crowd in Toyotas, and how it will impact the '2nd string Toyotas" like MWR & BDR. Can’t be anything but good for my man Mikey. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

I can’t wait for the first 1,2,3 finish from the Gibbs crew next year.

That will be a nice picture for my cubical.

17

[QUOTE=Trunk]
It will be interesting to see if he says anything extreme about his DEI equipment when he leaves. He’s sometimes sounds like he’s trying to blame his cars for his performance, and a blown engine is sometimes the driver’s fault.

[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen the thing about a blown engine being a driver’s fault brought up a few times, generally referring to Dale Jr. Would someone care to explain it to me? How is the driver hurting the engine?

Before you do, let me mention a few things. First, ever listen to the cars when the drivers do a burn out after a win? That flat sound (along with a rat-tat-tat) isn’t the valves floating. It’s a rev limiter. We can get into details on how they work if you want, but basically they keep the engine rpms from going above a predetermined amount by misfiring cylinders.

In the past the second (backup) ignition box in most of these cars either had no rev limiter or it was disabled. I’m not sure if that’s still true. If it is still true, I suppose a driver could switch ignition boxes and over rev the engine causing damage. It seems unlikely that a driver on that (or any) level is going to do that though in spite of what you may have seen on Days of Thunder. Say the driver does it anyway? The tachs in these cars also have memories, so the team can check max rpms later. Say the driver clears the tach on the way into the pits? Well, that’s going to look pretty suspicious now isn’t it?

Could it damage an engine running up against the rev limiter all race? A rev limiter is designed not to. It rotates through the cylinders that are misfired. I suppose it’s possible. I’m sure an engine builder isn’t going to want to hear an engine up against a rev limiter all race long. Neither is a driver or crew chief though. You would be hurting the top end and slowing the car. Ideally you would want to hit it a split second before you let off for a corner, if at all. If it’s hitting sooner, you’re either running some amazing laps compared to practice, or your team used the wrong gear. Neither of these are a negative against the driver.

So, let’s say you really can damage an engine by running it up against the rev limiter. Since we know you’re limiting your top speed by doing so, why would you want to hold it there? The only time I can think of would be on a road course when you’re almost to a corner where you would just have to downshift again anyway. You would probably have a net gain in lap time by not shifting twice versus lose of top end. If my memory is correct, it was at a road course where Jr. made the comment that he might have hurt the engine. I think he even said that it was in practice. It could have just been a case of the wrong chip in the rev limiter. Still, it seems like people took the story and ran with it from there. Now Jr. is blowing his engines on purpose.

Anyway, if I’m missing something, please fight my ignorance.

Btw, sorry if this sounds confrontational. I’ve been reading some angry message boards lately.

18

By the way, this is completely off-track (except that it deals with NASCAR), but it terrifies me when Carl Edwards does that backflip off the car after winning a race. Good grief, he’s spent the last three or four hours sitting in a car without getting up, and he immediately does a backflip? On pavement?

When I get out of the car after four hours on the road, I can barely walk. I’m just waiting for him to bust his head on one of those.

19

[QUOTE=RogueRacer]
<huge snip> If my memory is correct, it was at a road course where Jr. made the comment that he might have hurt the engine. I think he even said that it was in practice. It could have just been a case of the wrong chip in the rev limiter. Still, it seems like people took the story and ran with it from there. Now Jr. is blowing his engines on purpose.

Anyway, if I’m missing something, please fight my ignorance.

[/QUOTE]

(sorry for responding so late, but I was on vacation last week)

The exact method would be the same for either an oval or a road course. Get the engine up near redline, and downshift. It’s not the engine firing at high RPM that damages it, it’s the simple fact the engine is turning over 10,000 rpm (actually a bit higher than that). The valves and other linkages can be damaged by it.

On a roadcourse, you’d simply downshift too early, before you’ve slowed down to a point that your ‘downshift RPM target’ would be above the tolerable ‘over redline’ point. Or screw up a shift, like going from 6th to 2nd instead of 4th (assuming a 6 speed, 5th to 1st in a 5 speed). It’s easier to do in a stock car, as the transmission gears are cut differently, and they aren’t making gentle shifts with the clutch, like the rest of us would out in our ‘daily drivers.’

The REV limiter simply keeps the RPMs from “climbing through” the redline, not from going over due to a shift (though it would certainly engage in that case, bringing RPM down).

If anything, Jr. is simply not getting the ‘best engines’ that DEI are building on a week to week basis. Those are going to Truex as he’s in the chase. Menard & the DOW (Driver of the week) in the 01 simply aren’t agressive enough/good enough [except Mark Martin, but he’s too smooth to break engines :D] to get near to the point that they break the engines the rest of the time! :wink: (Things are going to turn around in that department next year with the DEI/RCR engine merger)

[QUOTE=Trunk]
Well, he’s better than Kerry!
[/QUOTE]

One would wonder what would happen if Kerry had the same opportunities. Some eyes are on Kerry’s son, who’s a development driver for DEI now.

[QUOTE=Spit]
I can’t wait for the first 1,2,3 finish from the Gibbs crew next year.
[/QUOTE]

And the 55 in the top spot at THE 500 next year! :smiley:

[QUOTE=jackelope]
When I get out of the car after four hours on the road, I can barely walk. I’m just waiting for him to bust his head on one of those.
[/QUOTE]

Steroids do wonderful things for your build. :eek: Just ask Kenseth. Perhaps he should get a connection, but they probably don’t work on robots. He’s also in incredible cardio shape. I’m amazed he can do it too though!

20

[QUOTE=jackelope]
By the way, this is completely off-track (except that it deals with NASCAR), but it terrifies me when Carl Edwards does that backflip off the car after winning a race. Good grief, he’s spent the last three or four hours sitting in a car without getting up, and he immediately does a backflip? On pavement?

When I get out of the car after four hours on the road, I can barely walk. I’m just waiting for him to bust his head on one of those.
[/QUOTE]

I’m thinking it will be a tib/fib fracture or spinal compression.

Either way, it does seem a bit silly to be doing that move- If it becomes your signature (which it has), at what age will you be forced to stop?