i also forgot to mention that columbus was tried for his inhumanity in hispaniola, which is an incredible statement given the propensity for barbarity that passed as acceptable in the spanish kingdom. he was let off, but that they bothered trying him at all is an amazing testament to his savagery.
I might point out that not every war qualifies as genocide. Sheesh, these folks here act as if the white folks in Europe never engaged in armed conflicts at all. I might point out here that people who directed their entire technology toward making better weapons, such as rifles, guns, all the way to nukes, can hardly take a moral high ground when it comes to judging others who might engage in a territorial dispute every so often but obviously didn’ t get deadly enough about it to invent canons.
What I’m really wondering about is why of all people Italian-Americans are so defensive about Columbus who was a Portuguese national and sailed under the Spanish flag. Italy doesn’t acknowledge that guy as one of their own and Columbus had no use for Italy, never spoke Italian outside of Italy, never returned to Italy once he had left the first time, wrote all his papers in Spanish or Portuguese, and signed them with Cristobal Colon, which is definitely not Italian.
At any rate, no matter which standards one wants to use, Columbus was a slave trader (which was not universally acceptable at the time), a murderer (which was against the law back then as well), and a thief (which was also against the law back then). Leave it to the “Knights of Columbus,” Italian-Americans, to honor him as a hero and shove him down our throat with an annual parade; but then, that’s the folks who also introduced America to the Cosa Nostra (Mafia), so what can we expect?
As for Anglosaxon Americans, they might have a leg to stand on if it weren’t for the sad fact that they invaded everywhere else too and left havoc in their wake there as well, not just here. The English didn’t just commit genocide here in America but also tried that in Scotland, Ireland, Wales, Australia, Canada, and arrogantly enslaved people in Asia and Africa as well as over here. It’s not just the American Indian population they created havoc with but with Africans and Asians as well along with the aborigines in Australia. How crazy those turkeys were becomes obvious when at one time they fought a war against France and Russia in Hamburg, which is located in Germany. Heck, the Hessians they brought over here during the revolutionary war were POWs from Germany. How they were surprised when those Hessians disembarked and kept going instead of fighting this war for England shows how arrogant and crazy the English really were. Why would they even expect enemy soldiers to fight a war for them? Stupid Anglosaxon arrogance knows no limit and unfortunately is the backbone of the US.
It’s even more amazing that today’s white crowd is no different as evidenced by the fact that one of them thinks he needs to teach a Dine’ the history of the Navajo nation or feels the urge to kindly explain to me that we’re human.
Yeah, we’re human, engaged occasionally in territorial disputes, and guess what? We also go to the restroom on a regular basis, imagine that.
It’s always such a good idea to engage in ethnic stereotyping when arguing against ethnic prejudice.
Actually, they were (most of them), members of the army of Hesse-Cassel, who were sent to America by Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel, in exchange for a cash payment by the British government. Also, while some Hessians did desert, most served honorably.
Amazing: Wrong, those were the Prussians and they were allies of the French. The Hessians were POWs of England. Two different people in totally different parts of Germany.
As for Buckner, pointing out historical facts is not a matter of stereotyping. Hey, the British policy was what it was and there’s no denying it. It was arrogant and stupid. As for the Knights of Columbus, they’re the only ones whining about Indian protests against the annual Columbus parades they instigate. Go check it out.
Hey Moderator! Can I use that word now?
You need to lighten up, PumaClaw, if you want anyone to take you seriously. I don’t “wannabe” anything. I am a person of mixed heritage. And I am entitled to feel however I damn well like about any subject.
As far as the Quannah Parker question you asked, did you actually read what I posted? I questioned my fams saying we had Cherokee lineage because I knew that we definitely had Commanche heritage. What made you think I said Parker was Cherokee? Everyone here knows he’s Comanche.
BTW, I do know my family and many of my distant relatives, whether they have Parker surnames or not.
Hey, PumaClaw, the Knights of Columbus are responsible for the Cosa Nostra’s activities in the U.S.? You got a cite for that?
For someone getting as snarkey as you are, you are amazingly wrong. The Hessians were not POWs of England. They were mercenaries hired by England.
The Hessians were never in any sort of alliance against the French. In fact, they fought against them in the Seven Years War, the War of Spanish Succession, and in most other wars during the time. They were, however, allies of England and Prussia during that time.
Please get your facts straight if you wish to be taken seriously.
No. What might be confusing you is that at the time, there was Frederick II…there was Frederick II, King of Prussia (Frederick the Great), and there was also Frederick II, Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel. The Prussians didn’t fight in the American Revolution. Hesse-Cassel sent 17,000 troops to America, the largest segment of the German mercenary troops sent there. Here’s an article listing German participation in the American Revolution.
http://globalgazette.net/gazrr/gazrr23.htm
As far as the Hessian relationship with England, Hesse-Cassel was actually an ally of England in the Seven Years War (under William VIII).
Neurotic: Where did I say the Hessians were allies of France? I said the Prussians were allies of France. And no, the Hessians were not mercenaries, they were POWs. Check German history books, not English ones.
Amazing: You’re the one who’s confused. The Prussians most certainly fought in the revolutionary war as allies of France. They fought on the American side against England. Check out von Steuben if you have any doubts. Check out German history, the Hessians were not mercenaries at all. That’s why the Germans still have the saying “off to Kassel” when someone has to go somewhere he doesn’t want to go.
NoClue, read your own post. You’re the one who said your family claimed to be Cherokee and then changed it to Comanche. I didn’t say that; I read it in your own post.
Maybe y’awl need to get your facts straight if you want to be taken seriously, aaye?
PumaClaw wrote:
But you are speaking for the entire group:
You also are speaking about the entire group of whites:
You’ve talked about Italian-Americans, Anglo-Saxon Americans, and even Knights of Columbus.
You seem to understand that actions speak louder than words, that history is important, and that murder is bad. You are acting with resentment, creating for yourself a history of hysteria, and murdering your own argument.
I don’t know why you came here, but here you are. If your goal is to alienate everyone and make them think your arguments are based on a sour grapes bigotry, then continue as you are. But if your goal is to enlighten people about Indian history and heritage, then you must muster up your manhood and change your ways.
sniff… sniff…
Where’s that bile smell coming from? Oh, PumaClaw is typing something again…
When you’re able to make a valid point, and do so without so much hatred coming through, I just may be able to take your arguments seriously.
Until then…
FWIW, PumaClaw sounds a lot like me a few years ago. I almost lost myself to the bitterness that I had against ‘white’ people. I lived, breathed, eat, slept and drank hatred for what they had done to me and my people. Then I met my Indian wife who helped me mellow my rage.
Her father was dark-skinned, the son of a half-Cherokee woman and a Cherokee man. Her mother is dark-skinned too, the daughter of a white man and a Choctaw woman.
My wife was raised in Oregon and her folks made sure she was assimilated because of the way they’d been treated growing up. She grew up knowing she was Indian, but her parents made sure that information didn’t go outside the house and no-one else - apart from some Indian friends - knew. They were aided in that by genetics, which gave my wife and her sister light skin, a legacy from their white grandfather.
When she left home, she moved to Wyoming, where she was befriended by members of the Sioux, Arapaho and Cheyenne communities. Her friends didn’t think of her as a twinkie or apple - red on the outside, white in the middle - or a wannabe, they thought of her as disenfranchised, a lost one. They listened to what she had to say and accepted her into their homes and hearts as a sister. They couldn’t teach her what it was to be Cherokee, but did what they could to teach her what it was to be Indian.
Now, she’s happy with what she is: A light-skinned Indian woman. Mainly Cherokee blood flows through her veins, but she speaks more Sioux. She thinks of herself as an Indian first, a Cherokee second. Some Native Indians may not think of her as Cherokee at all, let alone Indian. That would be their loss.
I understand the sentiments about whites stealing Indian culture. I’m Romanichal (Gypsy) and they do the same thing to mine; we have the cultural strip miners, the twinkies and the wannabes. But it’s sad to think that Indians that have had their heritage denied them (by whites or, as in my wife’s case, misguided attempts by parents to protect their children from bigotry) may be turned away in the fight against that.
Kal
Oops, you are right. You were referring to the Prussians. But the end result is the same, as the Hessians were still allies of the Prussians. Who were allies of the British during the Seven Years War.
von Steuben has nothing to do with Prussians fighting in the Revolution. He had been discharged by the Prussian army and had been wandering Europe looking for work by the time the Americans hired him. He was not sent on behalf of the Prussians, but was hired as a free agent, so to speak. While it is true that the Prussians supported the Revolution and were prepared to recognize American independence as soon as it was won, they provided no significant material support.
As for Hessians, you are still wrong. If German history books are saying they were POWs then those German history books are wrong. But frankly, I don’t believe that they do. Here is the treaty signed by the Hessian ruler hiring out his troops. Keep in mind this was a common practice among German states.
So, PumaClaw, unless you have some sort of cite that says the Hessians were POWs you need to give in and admit that you were wrong.
Prussia fought in both the Seven Years War and the Napoleonic wars as allies of Britain. They were allies of France in the War of the Austrian Sucession, eariler, but after that war, I don’t see any evidence that they were allied with France. Do you have any evidence that the Prussians were involved in the war? As for von Steuben, he was Prussian, but had been discharged from Prussian service a few years earlier. Von Steuben was pretty much a free agent when he came to America. (Benjamin Franklin had written in his letter of introduction for Von Steuben that he was a Prussian general, but that was a lie)
Please, if you have any evidence that either Prussia or Hesse-Kassel were enemies of Britain from 1775-1783, I’d really appreciate seeing it.
One of the most astounding things I read about the trail of tears, is how many native Americans were torn from their farms. Many were Christian, many dressed as any white would. Many spoke English. There were taking part of the dominant culture, but apparently not enough for Jackson and those that would push them west.
It was wrong no matter what culture the people had, but to do that to a group of people who were living no differently from any they would define as good citizens seems more difficult to understand. It is much easier to deny the humanity of those who live differently than you do.
BTW PumaClaw, many of us know that a goodly portion of our ancestors were native American and have no fricken clue about what people we come from or their culture. We see it in our family photos, and in our own faces if you look beyond the pale skin. I have pictures of my great-great grandmother, my great-great-great grandmother, and many others in my family. I know those 2 were Cherokee only through diligent searching by family genealogists. Many, many others on both sides of my family were native Americans. Knowing that does not make me a wannabe. It is a fact, same as any other, like my abject ignorace of native American culture.
I don’t think PumaClaw has a problem with people simply acknowledging their native American ancestry. I think he had a problem with NoClueBoy acting as if his trace amounts of native American ancestry made his opinions on native American genocide alright. I sensed a certain amount of arrogance in NoClueBoy’s post.
(I also bet it’s annoying when white people claim Native Americanness from their ivory perches of safety and comfort, without ever having to face the brunt of what it means to be Native American… It’s like if you were standing in the pouring rain next to someone standing under a giant umbrella. How would you feel if that person turned to you and said, “We’re really suffering out here, aren’t we?” I know I’d feel a bit peeved.)
Hey, don’t be like that PumaClaw! You wouldn’t want people to generalize about Native Americans like that, so don’t do it to other groups.
If you believe that your response elevated you above his, you are mistaken.
I’m getting a little sick of this generalizing.
Puma-What is a “White”? What culture do “Whites” have? How can you say “why is it that whites qualify as individuals who represent themselves but minorities are constantly viewed as spokesmen for the entire group?” with a straight, unhypocritical, face?:rolleyes:
I mean, are you making a blanket statement, saying that “whites” (whatever they are) all claim distant Indian heritage?
Or, and I think this is the case, are you saying that people (race not being an issue) who claim indian heritage, even though they don’t know anything about their own heritage, pretend to be on the side of the Native Americans?
You can talk about how certain people have treated Native Americans in a bad way, but to stereo-type to this degree is insulting. Quite frankly you sound racist to me.