Okay, let me explain something to ya. The situation is two-fold:
First of all, if you have to pull out a CDIB card to verify that you are 1/4 Indian, you don’t even know where it’s at when it comes to racism and discrimination. I mean, let’s face it, if at any time you can leave your CDIB card in your pocket and nobody’s the wiser, what’s your problem, right? That kinda compares to the guy with an umbrella and the one without one, where the guy with the umbrella actually believes to be exposed to the elements in the same way the dude without the umbrella is.
The second part is that if someone wasn’t raised the Indian way, he’s assimilated and has no internal conflict where the cultures clash. It’s those of us who live in both worlds, so to speak, who constantly have to make decisions when it comes to priorities. So someone who was raised white shouldn’t even feel compelled to speak up on such matters no matter what his degree of Indian blood may be.
And why someone who’s totally assimilated and his appearance doesn’t suggest he’s anything but white would even bother anybody with his real or fictitious Indian ancestry is totally beyond my comprehension. What point is such an apple even trying to make? Obviously this person was never exposed to racism and also doesn’t know beans about any Indian culture, so why should anyone be impressed with his 2 drops of Indian blood? Next thing ya know, you’ll find him on the web proclaiming to be Shaman Twinkle Toes, Elder of the Hollywood tribe, channeling through Green Mars Woman and selling Choctaw Sundance instructions at $300 a pop to NewAgers or something.
Indian is not just a race but also a variety of cultures, all of them clashing with the dominant culture in the US. When someone starts talking about a variety of white cultures in the US, he doesn’t even know what a culture consists of. It just so happens that there is one dominant culture in the US and everybody better fall in step or he’s left behind. Whites generally abide by this culture. A Greek wedding or Italian restaurant doesn’t change this fact. Culture is by far more interwoven with language, beliefs, religion, priorities, atmosphere, what’s acceptable in a given society and what isn’t, etc. than just eating spaghetti or attending a flea market or a dance. Hoisting a beer mug and listening to polka music doesn’t make you part of the German culture even if your name is Meier or Schmidt. Culture is something you absorb over a lifetime, not something you participate in during some “cultural” festival once a year.
Attending a powwow, on the same token, doesn’t even give you a glimpse into any Indian culture – especially since most off-rez powwows are intertribal to begin with.
Heck, lately it has become high fashion to claim to have a greatgreatgrandpa who was a Cherokee princess. So yeah, for many whites to claim Indian ancestry is a fad – largely prompted by some sort of guilt trip and the desire to lay legitimate claim on this land. Heck, pseudo-scientists paid by white supremacist groups even try to claim that Europeans populated this continent before we came. That’s an interesting notion for sure.
Kinda reminds me Floyd Red Crow Westerman’s song which has lyrics like:
“Now you claim to be, part Sioux part Cherokee
But where were you my friend
When we were near the end?”
Of course, the last resort of the white scoundrel is always to accuse minorities of being racist when they don’t buy into all this white baloney that’s constantly shoved down our throat. Racism was instituted in this country by whites, so they’re the only ones who can end it. It’s not customary to expect the “victim” to avert a crime; only the perpetrator can make the decision to execute a crime or not to execute it.
There’s an old saying in your white American culture:
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Keep that in mind always. White actions against us have made us wary, there’s no reason to trust a people who have engaged in genocide, slavery, apartheid, and the rest. You can call us racist if you like, that’s no skin off my nose, but we’re not gonna be fools enough to walk blindly into the same trap again. That’s all there is to it. There is also no indication that this trap no longer exists. Has a lot to do with corporate greed for sure but then, greed was the problem at the onset, wasn’t it? Greed was why the covered wagon people came over here unasked, greed was why we had to make way for them, and greed is what inspires national policy today.
And no, I’m not full of hatred. That’s just another transference. Why is it that when one of us presents his take of the matter, he gets immediately accused of hating all whites? Obviously in the accuser’s mind we have plenty of reason to be full of hatred and therefore react in the same way he usually reacts. That’s no indication that another person actually reacts in this way. It’s kind of like a con artist can’t envision honest people and just knows everybody is out to rip him off, right?
That most of us approach any white claims with caution is something y’awl can chalk up to experience, not hatred or racism on our part. There’s a fine line there somewhere, yanno. It’s kinda like after our code talkers saved the white folks’ bacon, they got tossed back on the rez and forgotten about. But looky there, as soon as the pResident stirs the war drums, is about to embroil this country in yet another war of greed, suddenly our code talkers are held up as role models for us. Why’s that? You don’t smell a rat? I do. Then I hear large numbers of white dudes waving flags while they voice total support for Dubya’s oil war but tell me that nope, they have no intentions of enlisting in the military but at the same time it’s the military’s duty to procure enough fuel for their 12mpg SUVs. And here I sit thinking about all this and putting two and two together; maybe the four I come up with is the wrong result, I dunno. You tell me; I’m open to creative suggestions.
You bring it up, now back it up. What is this dominant culture? How is it different from the other cultures in this country? What is “white”, how are people left behind? Are you saying all “whites” generally abided by this?
Well, aren’t you the definer of the term culture. Tell me, what are your qualifications for this position?
Who are these many “whites”? Are you suggesting that “white” people are the only ones who claim indian ancestry? Back up your “pseudo-scientists” claim with one iota of proof, other wise you are full of it.
You are giving ample proof to the thought that you are racist. Who is this “white” scoundrel (nice inflamatory language there). WHat is this “white baloney”? How is it shoved down “our” throats? Prove racism was instituted by “whites”, or shut your trap. How can “whites” end racism? As to your last point, it’s absurd.
Nothing but continued stereotypes here. Are you honestly trying to tell me that genocide, slavery, apartheid, and the rest are only “white” traits?
I realize it’s no skin off your nose to be called racist. That’s a shame. The amount of ignorance on your part is appauling.
Sure sounds like it to me.
Why is it when someone uses stereotypes and generalizations about an entire group of people they are considered a racist? Well if the shoe fits, wear it. By the way, are you aware that racist, doesn’t only mean “to hate all” of one particular group of people? You are aware of that aren’t you?
You certainly aren’t open to anything. Your posts have been filled with racist rhetoric and ignorance.
Please, define “white”.
You’re going through an internal struggle, that much is clear. Unfortunately I don’t have any real suggestions, but I understand what you’re going through to some extent.
You may not have a problem with whites as individuals, but you do have one with white culture. For many people (myself included) it’s hard to separate the two. When people hear you lambast “whites”, they think of themselves. They jump into “I didn’t do nuttin to nobody” mode. This defensiveness–and on the other side, your offensiveness–prevents constructive dialogue. It turns into a blame game, where one party dodges the jabs thrown by the other.
You’re angry. The anger is nothing to be ashamed of, but it must be channeled. Some of the greatest people in modern times were full of rage, and they were able to channel that energy into activism. Become a social activist. Become a revolutionary. But you will not do anything ranting on a message board. What ends up happening is that you will either preach to the choir or be labeled as a hot-head by those who don’t want to listen to you.
Because Americans have been taught that having “blood” of an ethnic group is just as good as belonging to that group. But it only works for some ethnic groups. I think if I tried to claim “Irish” heritage I’d be rightfully laughed at as soon as someone took a look at me.
Black people will also play up Indian ancestry. When they do it it’s because they’re trying to play down their blackness (since “Indian” is considered more respectable than “black”). When white people do it, I think they’re trying to make themselves more exotic, perhaps to escape the blandness that’s often associated with being “mainstream”. So claiming Indian isn’t a “white” thing. It’s an American thing. And it’s strange, considering the stigmization facing real Native Americans.
Surely there exists white people who aren’t cultural foreigners and who are down with the cause? I mean, even the radical Malcolm X realized that not all white people were devils. By shutting all whites out, you risk shutting out good people.
I see where you are coming from, but I disagree. Sure, if you look white, your experience differs greatly from someone who doesn’t, but that doesn’t keep you from empathizing or even feeling the sting of racism. For instance, my own father is a black man who is very light-skinned. As a young working man he often found himself in situations where people didn’t know he was black and they would expose their racist hearts to him. I can’t even imagine the rage he felt, torn between busting some ass and keeping his job on a daily basis. In some ways, my father had it harder than my mother, who didn’t have to witness those terrible backroom conversations. My father is a proud black man who has lost friends after revealing his background. His pale skin may afford him advantages not granted to other blacks, but his blues aren’t any lesser than any black man’s. And I imagine the same goes for some of those “apples” which you detest.
This is ridiculous. Why don’t you just step out of your closet every once in a while? Ask a few white people why they consider themselves white. Heck ask the KKK what their definition of white is. They’re the experts, I believe. Check on the laws the US entertained over time, they’ll give you a clue as to what the US considers white. After all the racism that went down in this country, your questions up there are absolutely asinine. Why would I have to define white? Your culture did a good enough job in that department when they decided who goes to which schools. Don’t put on your innocent, naive airs with me.
You are so deep in the valley of denial, it’s hopeless. Check up on US history. Check the Jim Crow laws. Check the BIA (that’s in the Dept. of the Interior if you have trouble finding them on the web) regs as to what their requirements for a CDIB card are.
Guess what? As long as there was only one race populating this country, racism was naturally absent period. You can only encounter racism when two or more races meet. Now check into all the laws and regs the white immigrants passed from the start, then you’ll discover who brought racism here. Then check on who brought black slaves here and you’ll find it sure wasn’t us. Check into the various state laws concerning interracial marriages. Mississippi struck theirs down only a few years back, so you shouldn’t have any trouble locating them.
Check a few of the white supremacist websites and you’ll discover what their claims are. I mean, do your own research. Heck this board’s no remedial history class.
Now just keep up your flame war calling me ignorant when it’s YOU who is so deep in denial that you have to guts to ask ME for a definition of “white.” Heck, your ancestors sure didn’t have any problems establishing who’s white and who ain’t and enact all kinds of laws accordingly. Yanno, the whites were the ones who rode in the front half of the bus. So why are you asking me? Didn’t your ancestors teach you anything at all?
I’m sure as heck not going to post URLs to half the internet here to “prove” stuff that’s common knowledge anyway. Use your favorite search engine and look it up. Go to the library. Don’t call other people ignorant just because you don’t know how to do your own research into reality. Some of us only dream of being as pampered as you that they can just ignore the real world, yanno.
Instead of playing Socrates here, why don’t you read my lengthy post and think about it instead of glancing over it and taking 30 seconds to pen out this inane response here? Even Socrates got so sick of his “define this,” “define that,” “define the other” that he wound up ingesting hemlock. I hope you’ll get over your fascination with that moron before you make a complete fool of yourself.
Well, not really. He didn’t exactly have much of a choice in the matter.
My post there was to Maetros, BTW.
Monstro, there is something about Indian cultures that you don’t understand. Nope, outsiders of any particular nation can not be part of it. Heck, I only know the deep culture of my own nation and would never even pretend to know beans about that of the Lakhota or the Choctaw or the Cherokee. It is something you learn from the Elders and our Elders don’t just give public instructions.
In fact, the biggest crime that white America has committed against black people is that they robbed them of their tribal culture, their individual culture, their tribal language, their tribal spiritualism. They have robbed the black people of their roots, so to speak.
Since you don’t even know what I’m involved in, please don’t comment on it.
Gee, Neurotik, maybe everybody around Socrates got sick of it. Fact is that the man’s “philosophy” never got anywhere period.
The answer should be no because black folks do it too. But I’ve made the same observation that Puma has with regards to whites and their NA ties. It’s been my experience that many white people will advertise the fact that they have native american kin as if those drops of blood qualify them for membership in the Minority Club. This percieved membership permits them to speak freely about subjects dealing with race and discrimination from the position of “representatives”, when the only thing that actually ties them to that particular heritage is a few strands of DNA and a few family stories about “great-great-grandpa Crazy Wolf”.
I, like most Americans whose families have been here for several generations, also have NA ancestors, but the only time I find that information relevant enough to disclose in discussions is when someone asks me why I look the way I do. And even then, usually I keep mum about it because I’m pretty sure those few drops of Blackfoot blood have very little to do with why I’m the strange-looking gal that I am today.
PumaClaw
Like you said, you don’t speak for all nations, all Indians, or even one nation. So please stop this “we” shit. A warrior who won’t aim his arrow is worthless to his tribe.
Indeed they did, because he kept proving that they weren’t as good and knowledgeable as they thought themselves. Perhaps this is the real reason you are getting upset with Meatros?
As for his philosophy never getting anywhere (and I find it amusing that you put it in quotations as if it wasn’t really philosophy), it influenced Plato, who influenced Aristotle, who influenced the development of both Islamic and Christian thought. Quite frankly, Socrates’ “philosophy” laid the foundation for 2000 years of philosophical and theological thought. Not exactly something that “never got anywhere.”
Um, why are you giving monstro such an attitude, man? She’s actually expressed empathy and understanding of many things you’ve said. Take a deep breath and realize that she’s engaging you in an adult discussion, which I thought you were seeking by coming here. Or would you rather us start hijacking the thread with pointless Simpson references again? Jeesh.
Of course. There’s something about all cultures that no one can understand. So? I never claimed that I understood Indian cultures. I only said I understood–*to a certain extent–how you feel, since I’m not white and I’m constantly reminded of past and present injustices. But now you’ve got me thinking that maybe I don’t understand how you feel because I don’t know how it feels to be condescending towards people who are trying to be nice and serve as a receptive audience.
Since my post to you is probably as decent a post you’re going to get around here, I can only assume that you don’t want anyone to respond. I mean, this isn’t an Indian message board. And from the way you make it sound, only people in your nation truly understand how you feel. Well, if you limit civil responses to posters only in your nation, this is going to be a lonely thread. Maybe that’s the way you want it to be.
That pretty much describes me. The story is that my mother’s mother’s mother was Cherokee (I didn’t say “princess”, so don’t even try to attribute that word to this twinkie). For all I know, it might not be true at all.
I think I got a taste of both when I lived in Montezuma Creek, Utah & attended Whitehorse high school. As a Dine, you might know where that is.
Now, back to the OP & the debate thereof: I think the official US policy definitely was cultural genocide. After extensive study of american history & native american history I really really believe that the idea was for indians to be isolated from european immigrants unless they chose to lose their culture & become assimilated into the mainstream. This was definitely not a nice thing to do. It was a tragedy and the legacy of it is not a good thing for American indians or mainstream culture either.
Nobody responsible for the policies of genocide against American indians is alive anymore. Try to get out more. Maybe make friends with people based on common interests and not ethnicity. I’m not suggesting you lose your traditional heritage; you can keep it and still be a powerful voice in (and part of) the mainstream culture. (Anyway, my friend D. Yazzie does.) I like Monstro’s suggestions about activism.
Ask a few white people? Whom would I be talking to? The KKK are experts now? Here I was thinking they were ignorant hate-mongers, and your here to give them credibility? FWIW, re-read Monstro’s second paragraph, Monstro makes some good points. I don’t think they really apply to me as much as some others, being as I am a mix of heritages.
I never said the US was fair. I also don’t agree with what the US might have considered at one time. At one time the US endorsed slavery, something that I am very deeply against. Also, don’t narrow-mindedly assume that the US is the only country that has ever had racism. MY CULTURE?? How can you assume WHAT my culture is? If you have the audacity to assume that my culture is the “white” culture (whatever that is) just because I find your rhetoric racially motivated, I suggest you open your eyes. My culture indeed. Grow up.
Please point me to where I said America hasn’t been racist. I would like to see my words on the matter. Also, I would like you to check on something. Look up how America treated it’s Irish and Italian immigrants early this century, and then get back to me on how America is only bigotted towards people with color.
Why? Do you honestly think these white supremacists speak for any sort of majority of people?:rolleyes: I know hate rhetoric when I see it, and right now it’s coming from you.
Denial of what? What have I denied? How do you know what my ancestors are? You don’t. You are speaking from extreme ignorance, so why don’t you calm down and consider some other peoples view points here.
Common knowledge indeed. You know a duck’s quack doesn’t echo and scientists don’t know why…
You don’t have the right to assume how I read your posts. Also Socrates most certainly didn’t off himself because he was sick of “defining” things. Do some research. For the record, QUIT ASSUMING THINGS ABOUT ME YOU ARE DISPLAYING EXTREME IGNORANCE!
WHAT??? Are you serious?? How the hell do you think we know his freak’n name if he never “got anywhere”?:rolleyes:
Yes, I am arrogant. And sometimes I am ignorant. But, I am learning. (Sidepoint: opinions aren’t always based on facts.)
I apologize to anyone I may have offended by posting in an arguementative (sp?) manner. Even you, PumaClaw.
While I don’t feel I have anything more worthwhile to post as an actual debate, I do find this thread most enlightening. And sometimes entertaining.
Serious. I’m not being sarcastic or facetious here. Like I said, I am learning. Please do continue and I’ll decipher the debates from the arguements as best I can.
P.S. This is one of the reasons I came to SDMB. I want to teach and be taught. I want to entertain and be entertained. The SDMB is the best place I have found in several years of looking. Thanks guys.
PumaClaw -I understand your frusteration with me. I’m not trying to just goad you on. I’m trying to get you to understand that blanket statements and hasty generalizations are not very useful in debates. I do think that some of your argument has merit. However, what I have repeatedly taken issue with is your ability to lump all “white” people into one group. This aggravates me to no end because I like to think that on the whole, society is trying to stamp out these sorts of stereo-types. I do believe there is still a lot more work to be done, but I don’t think you are helping your cause by continuing in this blanketing manner. I apologize if I’ve frusterated you, that is not my intent. I will also admit that you’ve frusterated me, but I will reiterate, I do believe Native Americans have cause for frusteration. I do think it’s useful to debate about issues that are important to Native Americans. What I do not think is constructive is the stereotyping that you are doing. It is of the same breed of stereotyping that, IMHO, has led to a lot of the atrocities that you have been telling me to “research”.
oh, god… can’t we just have one conversation about this without someone coming in pointing out that indians were mere humans, subject to the lesser sides of humanity, especially to indian people? do you realize how silly, pompous and offensive that is trying to humanize indian people to indian people? this happens everytime… every, time. what do you imagine you’re proving?
SO wheN IndianS kilL rapE torturE anD maiM they’rE jusT demonstratinG lesseR humaN traitS, buT EuropeanS dO iT ouT oF aN intrinsiC eviL? MaybE therE iS somethinG tO thE wholE CaiN BlooD theorY. (BTW, I finD iT helpS mY therapY tO capitalizE thE lasT letteR oF mY wordS anD theN draW attentioN tO iT sO thaT I caN geT defensivE anD petulanT wheN somebodY inquireS ‘whY’; iT caN bE annoyinG, buT yoU nO longeR noticE iT afteR a moment.)
And it’s hard to mount an attack when I’m not sure what you’re arguing. Are you trying to state that Indians got a raw deal? Or that genocide is generally a bad thing? Both of those are provocative statements, I’ll concede, but I think they’ve been fairly well proven by now.
Are you arguing for reparations? More Indian appreciation? What?
It’s done. Those robbed are now dead. The nation’s guilt is acknowledged. Nothing’s changing hands. Get over it.
(Great quote from Spike on BTVS: "The Native Americans were wiped out. Sucks but it happens. That’s what history is- people with better weapons doing really bad things to other people until they get whipped themselves. If Caesar were alive today he’d probably write ‘I came, I saw, I conquered, but then I felt really bad about it.’ ")
**originally posted by Puma Claw:
Heck, lately it has become high fashion to claim to have a greatgreatgrandpa who was a Cherokee princess. **
My great-great-grandpa left his family to become a Cherokee princess and I quite assure you we did not find it fashionable, though his bead work we had to grudgingly admit was incredible. My mother later recorded her grief in a song: “My father married a pure Cherokee, my mother’s people were ashamed of me/my grandaddy was a Cherokee maid/being a berdache was the only way to get laid”… Later it was tweaked and sold to Cher, but for now you know the rest of the story.
Apologies to Joss Whedon, James Marsters, and anybody else for the misquotation above. The precise exchange, from the episode PANGS in Season IV, reads as follows:
SPIKE: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That’s what conquering nations do. It’s what Caesar did, and he’s not going around saying, “I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it.” The history of the world isn’t people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.
BUFFY: Well, I think the spaniards actually did a lot of-- Not that I don’t like spaniards.
(and also)
WILLOW: If we could talk to him–
SPIKE: You exterminated his race. What could you possibly say that would make him feel better? It’s kill or be killed here. Take your bloody pick.