Natural Gas and Power Backup Questions for Residence

Factual Questions
1

There’s a few different issues in this post, but here’s how it all started…

The power at my parents’ house went out during the winter for a few days because of downed power lines. The have NG central heat/electric AC, but during this time, the central heating would not work. My Dad says that this is because the blower in the unit requires electricity. I don’t really know anything about this, but I have a natural gas dryer unit, and it’s plugged into the wall, so I guess if my dryer requires electricity, his central heating must require electricity. So, here’s the first question:

  1. I don’t want my parents to be in a position where they don’t have heating for days again. But, my parents are elderly, and I don’t want them having to fiddle with a generator that requires adding fuel (such as propane) to it. What are my options here? Is there some type of battery backup or NG-powered generator I can have installed for them that will provide enough power for their central heating?

  2. If I can get something like the answer to question #1 in place, could I then make it so that the refrigerator and the microwave and maybe lighting in a few places have power as well during an outage?

Now, on to the next bit. My Mom has got it into her head that she wants a gas stove top. They currently have an electric stove top. The foundation is a concrete slab. There is NG coming in from the foundation for the water heaters and the fireplace, and then NG going to the central heating unit. The central heating unit is in the attic. We’re not going to run NG lines through the foundation, obviously. Someone has told my Mom that they can run NG lines through the attic, then down to the stove top. Since there’s already NG going up to the attic for the central heating, that should work, shouldn’t it? But my gut is telling me there’s something wrong about running an NG line across the attic and then down to a stove top. So, here’s the next question:

  1. Is it safe and possible to run an NG line across the attic and down to a stove top?

On to the next question. They have an electric dryer. The room with the dryer is next to the kitchen. There is no NG outlet in the dryer room.

  1. Is there any benefit to running NG into the dryer room? I guess, I’m not sure I understand the benefit of using NG for a dryer vs. straight electricity.

Thanks for the help.

2
  1. Yes. It depends on how much you want to spend. If you can spend 3k for the generator and another 1-2k for installation and electrical work, you can wire it up so that the generator will start automatically, triggering the transfer switch, and take over the job of running certain loads like the heating, the kitchen, etc.

The cheaper option is this. I recommend this specific model from costco because it has a good sine output. Advantages are it’s cheaper, if the natural gas supply fails it will work off of bottled propane. The disadvantage is there’s a mess of extension cords you would have to run through the house to hook everything up - you might have to add a plug to the furnace if it doesn’t have one already. That is, you’d have an electrician rewire the wires supplying the furnace to go to a plug and the plug would go to an outlet in the attic. That way you could unplug the furnace and plug it into an extension cord going to the generator.

  1. Get her an induction stove top. Superior in every way, and there is not the risk of causing a fire like there is with natural gas. Less likely for her to be burned, they are more powerful and easier to cook with, etc. Induction stoves are faster and more powerful, have better control of temperature (there’s not a minimum power level inherent like there is with gas where the flame has to be a minimum size), are much easier to clean, and it’s a lot harder to burn yourself.

  2. Sure.

  3. No. Natural gas driers carry the risk of explosions, and the energy cost savings aren’t significant.

3

NG dryers still require electricity to rotate the drum and disperse the heated air. Also, NG dryers are more expensive than comparable electric models ($50 - $100). But, from here :

jimbuff314 - living with the risk of a natural gas dryer explosion :eek: for the 19th year running. :dubious:

4

Possibly in the future. Having connections for either natural gas or electric dryers in the laundry room might be a slight extra if you ever want to sell your house. Also lets you choose either type, based on utility prices at the time you replace the dryer. (Generally, the price difference isn’t enough to justify changing when your current (paid-for) dryer is still working.)

5

There are companies that specialise in backup generators. They sit outside and will automatically kick in when the power goes down. You can spend $loads to keep the house running normally, or for $4000 or so you can get a lower power option. Other suppliers are available - you should get quotes.

http://www.generac.com/all-products/generators/home-backup-generators#?cat=6&cat=-279&cat=147&cat=153&cat=214&cat=217&cat=249

6

Correct. In addition to the blower (hot air) or circulator pump (hot water), the valve that turns the gas to the burner on and off is electric (and controlled by the thermostat, but that’s the least of your problems).

Yes. I would recommend a generator as opposed to battery backup (UPS). With batteries, you need electricity to recharge them when they run down. With natural gas or propane, the generator will run for a longer time than the batteries in a UPS. And you can probably get a propane delivery. Getting an electricity delivery is more problematic, which is how you got here in the first place.

Since you say your parents are elderly, you want a permanently connected generator as opposed to a portable one that gets hauled out when needed. The next thing you need is called a “transfer switch” and will switch some (but not all) things in the house to the generator when the power goes out. They come in manual (you have to throw a switch) and automatic types, with automatic being more expensive. It is probably worth the extra expense for your parents, as they probably don’t want to go down to the basement in the dark (because the power is out) to flip the switch (it will be near their electrical panel).

You’ll want a gas-fueled generator (propane or natural gas), not liquid (gasoline, diesel). They are less likely to clog up from not being used. Propane has the advantage of letting you be completely “off the grid” (storage tank on premises) but you can run out of fuel during an extended power failure. Natural gas normally continues to flow even when the electricity is out, though something like a major disaster could in theory disrupt natural gas service. [FWIW, my city lost power for nearly 2 weeks after Hurricane Sandy, but the gas continued to work.]

Yes, but… when the transfer switch is installed, one or more circuits will be moved to it from the regular electrical panel. A circuit controls many more things than one outlet, so moving an existing circuit may require a larger generator, etc. It might be more practical to have a few new outlets / circuits installed (make the receptacles a different color from the rest of the ones in the house to make it obvious that they will work from the generator during an outage). A lot depends on the age and type of construction of the house.

Lastly, you want to make sure that the generator will start and run when the power goes out. This involves things like making sure its starter battery is charged and that it has all the necessary fluids (oil, coolant) and fuel (gas) to start. The company that installs it can probably provide scheduled service for it - at the least, find out how often it should be tested & checked.

7

You have vast choices for a generator, but some of your questions do tie into it. A gas stovetop, oven and dryer does take a lot of electric load off of your generator, allowing a lower powered generator and also allowing one to use these items without worry. It’s part of the overall plan, and in some circumstances could be cheaper going with Nat Gas appliances then upsizing the generator to accommodate their electric counterpart’s power draw. However with central a/c you will need some extra generator power.

Switching to a gas stove top seems like a no brainier, it is reportedly better in many respects and is commonly considered the chef’s choice. A electric oven however is normally considered better (holds a more consistent temperature - so better for baking in particular), broiling swings back to gas as preferred. A gas water heater would also be helpful taking a load off of a generator.

But going back to gas appliances they are different also, and some people who are used to something, such as electric cooking, just don’t adapt well to change, especially the elderly. This is a reason I would advise against the above mentioned induction stove, as well as anything too digital for them. And then we ahve the fear factor, founded or not, but if they are afraid of gas, regardless of if it is realistic, they will not be comfortable with it and thus better to avoid.

:confused: They are a well proven appliance in many houses with natural gas, and many more with propane. I don’t know where this risk of explosion fear comes from but not justified.

But is it worth it? IDK, perhaps if the rates between nat gas and electricity are vastly different and one does a lot of drying. However for a elderly couple that amount of drying is not normally the case. It is more like would you rather install a high current outlet (220 in the US), or run a nat gas line to where the drying is going to be. However it could allow the use of the dryer while on generator power while a electric dryer would require a more powerful unit or to shut down other stuff, or not use it at all, so might be worth it to switch.

Nat gas I noticed did seem to dry a bit better, perhaps because I am used to it, but perhaps because part of the combustion produces water, so the air is not bone dry and does not over dry the clothes at the end. However dryers commonly have sensors now to prevent over drying and some even have a hookup to a water line to add some humidity so that should be a non-issue.

In all the above consider the age of the appliance and if they will need replacing soon factoring that into the cost.

8

A friend of mine has a natural gas furnace tied to hot water radiators. There is a small generator in the furnace that provides whatever power is need for ignition. You may have to light it initially in a power failure. The HW pump does not operate in case of a power failure but HW rises and the cold water falls so at least the first floor remained habitable during Montreal’s notorious 1997 ice storm, when I had no heat for a week (actually for about 175 hours). He also has a gas hot water heater.

The other experience I am aware of is my son’s house in Redmond, WA. He had a NG generator installed maybe 15 years ago. It cost around $10K and it operates everything in the house except the electric oven and the electric dryer. He doesn’t have air conditioning, but presumably that would be off that grid too. There are two problems. It is very noisy and the neighbors don’t like it. They don’t much mind during a power failures, especially when he invites them in, but he has to run it for a while once a month. Second, although it is supposed to turn on automatically in a power failure, it is not reliable. I remember going out on a snowy day with a phone in one hand getting instructions from him (he was at work) on how to turn it on by hand. After several tries it worked. Of course, things might have improved (and gotten cheaper) in 15 years.

But when it works, it is a real pleasure. Once the power failed on Thanksgiving day. He fired up his gas grill for the turkey, other stuff was cooked on the gas stove and he did the pumpkin pie in his microwave.

9

Induction cookers are cool, but they require a very large amount of current, which is not a good choice for someone who may need to rely on a generator. (Same with electric dryers and water heaters.) They also won’t work with glass or copper cookware, or pots that have non-flat bottoms (like a wok.)

Millions of people rely on gas appliances without managing to blow themselves up. They are very safe. And the energy savings can be quite significant, depending on local electricity rates and how often you need to do laundry.

10

Hi, everyone. Thanks for the response. I’m going to shop around for an NG generator (and installation and maintenance), because I think that’ll be the easiest for them to deal with. Since we’ll have to run lines for the generator, I’ll go ahead and run lines for the stove and the dryer, even if we don’t end up using them.

I’m busy with work, so I probably won’t be on the boards for awhile.

11

Some more thoughts (for BnS when they return, or anybody else interested):

An advantage of NG or propane appliances is that their typically enormous energy consumption is in the form of fuel and not electricity. My electric hot water heater can consume 7000 watts, and adding 7000 watts to your electric generator capacity is a pretty big deal. When you are paying quite a lot for generator capacity, having your biggest energy users consume some energy form other than electricity is very cost effective.

Propane or NG fuel can be stored forever without spoiling, whereas diesel and especially gasoline are perishable. I have a 10,000 W gasoline generator and store fuel for it. Cycling gasoline through my storage containers and eventually into my car, so that I have a few days reserve on hand constantly, is certainly a big and heavy and smelly chore. I’ve lost electrical power for as long as 11 days straight in the past, which also means losing water and heat, and also means local gas stations were mostly shut down, and it wasn’t pretty. So, this chore seems worthwhile. But if I felt I could have afforded a stored propane system it would have been way nicer, especially as I’m getting older and gasoline is not getting lighter.

The standard proper approach seems to be as other posters reference: rewiring a bit to create several critical power circuits that the generator can power, on their own sub-panel connected through the transfer switch. But I’m soon going to do something more simple and versatile: wire my entire house supply through the transfer switch. This means every single outlet and appliance will still operate, and I don’t need to wire a special sub-panel. The only disadvantage I can see in this is that I have to be thoughtful about which things to operate together, so I don’t trip the overload breaker on the generator. It would be easier to make the sub-panel foolproof (but because you can still plug too much stuff into it this is never complete). What I don’t like about the sub-panel approach is that you have to correctly guess during its installation which outlets you want to use ten years from now when some hurricane shuts you down.

12

With Napier’s post, yes it’s great to just be able to run your entire house and not worry about overloading the generator. It also can save some money as you don’t need a sub panel, just a transfer switch. Propane or NG appliances can help save some serious cash in the generator sizing and/or wiring a subpanel.

13

How often does this happen to them? It seems like overall it might be cheaper and less disruptive for them to go to a hotel for a few days.

14

I have a Generac 15KW propane fueled generator with an automatic transfer switch. The transfer switch panel handles 14 circuits as I recall. When the power fails the system waits about 30 seconds and the generator starts. About 30 seconds later it picks up the load. When the power returns it waits about 30 seconds to see if it will stay on, then switches off.

This runs my heat/AC, which is geothermal heat pump, lights, refrigerators, freezers, and my amateur radio gear. My electric water heater is not connected, but I get hot water from the geothermal heat pump so it’s not an issue.

In order of increasing cost, and decreasing noise, there are four types of generators:

3600 RPM Air Cooled (my Generac)
1800 RPM Air Cooled
3600 RPM Water Cooled
1800 RPM Water Cooled

It’s a little noisy but I find I can go right back to sleep in air conditioned comfort. :slight_smile:

I have a 250 gallon propane tank that feeds the generator as well as my gas cook top.

15

Two things:

First, please be aware that a gas burner set up for NG CANNOT be fed Propane. Sometimes, this needs to be said.

Second, another “sometimes needs to be said”: switching from electrical cook top a gas burner may require a hole be cut in the roof. A hood on an electrical unit does not need to be vented and many times a re-circ hood is used. With an open flame, I am 98% certain that building code will require a straight-up, through the roof vent.

16

I had a whole house generator, Generac installed and love it. I added the new cellular option, Mobile Link that updates a web site with status reports. There was a small subscription fee. I signed up for three years. Registered using my units serial number.

I like being able to check for any error codes, and if the generator ran while I’m away.

They do require annual service. You can buy the Generac service pack (mostly new filters and oil) and DIY. Or get a service contract. Battery requires changing every three years. Its similar to a car battery.

17

Our local hospital had two big diesel backup generators. If you visit the wards you see that some wall sockets are red and others white. The red ones are wired to the generator and staff are not supposed to plug any non-essential equipment into them. I guess you could do something similar in a private house.

When the power goes down at the hospital (thankfully a rare event), all the equipment alarms immediately go off - cacophony in intensive care…:slight_smile: And all the fire doors close themselves too as they are held open by electro-magnets.

18

I don’t know about home units, but a restaurant I’m familiar with had induction cooking equipment for certain dishes and they were extremely(!!) stringent about the rule no jewelry in the kitchen; there’s a risk you could seriously burn your finger if you accidentally got a ring close to the element for even a short time. Something new and different with unusual precautions is probably not recommended for seniors.

19

Most stoves and cook tops, but perhaps not all, can work with either NG or propane by changing the orifice in the burners. Check with the seller on any you are considering.