Nava, I can't let this go

The BBQ Pit
241

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I agree, but I also think a lot of us do. It is hard to pretend we wear the white hats that we mostly did in WWII and WWI. Too many incidents before, between and after to maintain that level of ignorance with credibility. There are very few countries that can afford to throw stones at the history and actions of other countries.

9/11 was a huge wake up for us. Most Americans never seem to understand how horrible terrorism was in the rest of the world. That was a Middle-East thing, or Irish things or maybe a European thing. Now we know it is an entire World thing. Collectively, it is still very new to us. Maybe you can give us a little more time to get use to it.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

But in a fashion that is probably not unique to Americans, but for which we are known - we have taken this “thing” that the rest of the world knew only too well and have cried “but the rest of you just don’t understand.” Not all of us, probably not most of us, but enough of us to continue to make the world believe we believe ourselves to be the center of the universe, unable to understand that anyone else might have had a similar experience, and - once we get that far - many unable to grasp that they might end up coming to a different conclusion.

America seems to be the “Borderline Personality Disorder” candidate as far as nations go. Of course, I say this as a self centered American - its possible that there are other contenders for the title but being American, I don’t know enough about them.

242

Just when the thread was starting to wind down, too. That’ll get this to page 10 by tonight, jsgoddess.

Not that I disagree with what you said, though.

She can tell you about the plane crash with a gleam in her eye
It’s interesting when people die
Give us dirty laundry

  • Don Henley
243

[QUOTE=Dangerosa]
But in a fashion that is probably not unique to Americans, but for which we are known - we have taken this “thing” that the rest of the world knew only too well and have cried “but the rest of you just don’t understand.” Not all of us, probably not most of us, but enough of us to continue to make the world believe we believe ourselves to be the center of the universe, unable to understand that anyone else might have had a similar experience, and - once we get that far - many unable to grasp that they might end up coming to a different conclusion.
[/QUOTE]

Such a good post.

244

Just to point out uselessly, that our own perspectives aren’t the only one. Simply because we know other countries in the middle of terrorism suffer (and a lot too), doesn’t mean everyone does. Because we’ve never experienced the attitude of thinking another has had callous disregard for pain they don’t feel, surely we understand that there’s probably many who have and for various reasons (like a lifetime of war, poverty, physical / sexual / mental distress). Not even on stuff that’s consider ‘universal.’ I’m only saying.

245

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Could you please point out which one was his good point? I think I missed it?
[/QUOTE]

I would, but given the tenor of the thread, there’s pretty much no chance I could explain it without it being drastically misconstrued, so I think I’ll just withhold further comment.

246

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
She was talking about her own country. It was obvious she was talking about her own country, the other Spaniards taking offense at what the Americans said.

My god. There are times when this board is an embarrassment to me, and this is one of them.
[/QUOTE]
Inded. I’ve noticed a nasty habit among Dopers to immediately assume the worst whenever a fellow Doper posts something controversial. Seems to be happening quite frequently of late, and not just among Offenderati. I don’t know what’s causing it and, frankly, I don’t think a board dedicated to fighting ignorance should be going down that path.

247

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
Thinking about the word “fun” for watching the whole thing develop:

I’m not so sure that it’s a terrible word for it. We all probably have a bit of rubbernecker in us, a bit of fascination with trainwrecks that is enhanced when we are close enough to know the players but not too close.

People, in general, seem to like emergencies. They like the exhilaration and the frenzy. People dying and things being destroyed, that’s secondary to the fascination.

There’s a reason people follow tragedies with a near religious fervor, and the reason is that they find it fun. The craziness, the drama, the hysteria.

I didn’t have a TV when 9/11 happened. I didn’t see most of the images. I wasn’t much of an observer of all of the events. But I know people who were absolutely glued to their sets, who knew all of the details down to the last bolt the same way we in the Harry Potter threads could rattle off the names of minor characters from Book 4.

So, no. I don’t think it’s devastating and shocking for someone to say they found the whole spastic commotion, overreactions aplenty, to be fun, or funny, or simply too compelling to turn away from because then you might miss something and where’s the fun in that?
[/QUOTE]

Maybe for you, but not for me. I had no exhilaration, I don’t follow tragedies if you mean the media circus crap like OJ & Princess Di and little blond girl in Colorado.

9/11 set me into what I realized later was a small bought of depression. It directly affected people I knew and even a cousin that was lucky enough to be out of work that day recovering from pneumonia. I had a lot of family in NYC, friends that worked near the Towers or at least used the path trains to commute. My mom had cousins on the FDNY. Thankfully, my family lost no one. My circle had many near misses however. My town lost 22 people. The town I grew up with lost another 18 including the brother of someone I went to high school with. My cousin lost 10 friends on that day and her job was gone. She moved out of the city shortly after.

I don’t really understand your point of comparing peoples reactions to 9/11 to Harry Potter.

Jim

248

It was certainly a calloused and inappropriate thing to say. However, I’m all out of stones at the moment so I’ll just accept Nava’s apology and move on with my life.

249

not worth it …

250

I for one think this thread is a good thing. You United Statesians have no idea how the rest of the world has pussyfooted around your tender sensibilities on this issue for six years. It’s about time we started talking honestly about this huge issue.

Canada was by your side on September 11th - we did everything we could for you, and we would have done even more if it had been possible. We sat here in shock and cried for you for days. In return, your government shut down the borders between us and demanded that everyone start using passports (probably not a bad idea, though), then started an illegal war that we couldn’t support that wasn’t even against the terrorists responsible for September 11th, and got mad at us for not supporting you. You might note that Canadian troops have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan (where the terrorists actually are) for a long time now.

The U.S. government has had the worst response it possibly could have to the terrorism of September 11th - it’s trying to make sure that no terrorism ever happens again. That just shows how they still don’t understand the people who will commit terrorist acts against them. When someone is willing to die for a cause, you can’t stop them. It’s that simple. Did it ever occur to the U.S. government to say, “I can see you obviously have a serious grievance here. Maybe we can change the way we do a few things IN COUNTRIES THAT AREN’T EVEN OUR OWN.” Instead, they arrogantly chose the path that is most likely to escalate the anger against the U.S., all the while lying to its own people about how safe they’re making them. Instead of trying to make the world a better place, the U.S. government seems to be actively working to make it a worse one for everyone.

ETA: I just realized what the U.S. government is doing with it’s actions at home - it’s the hand-waving that a magician does to deflect attention from what he’re really doing. The U.S. government doesn’t give a damn about any more terrorist actions at home. Damn, that took me a long time to figure out.

251

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
You are an ass.
[/QUOTE]

Good comeback.

“all-out war” – what a laughable thing to say, as if there’s a universal definition for it.

252

[QUOTE=featherlou]
Did it ever occur to the U.S. government to say, “I can see you obviously have a serious grievance here. Maybe we can change the way we do a few things IN COUNTRIES THAT AREN’T EVEN OUR OWN.”
[/QUOTE]
That has its own pitfalls, though. There’s the chance that once you show you’re willing to be swayed by force, others will take that route more easily and more often.

The best response, I think, would have been not to kowtow or go on a rampage, but give bin Laden the finger and keep on getting on with our own business, while increasing security where reasonable and responding to immediate threats. This whole War on Terror thing is like a child throwing a tantrum rather than a measured, direct response to a threat.

253

[QUOTE=featherlou]
I for one think this thread is a good thing. You United Statesians have no idea how the rest of the world has pussyfooted around your tender sensibilities on this issue for six years. It’s about time we started talking honestly about this huge issue.

Canada was by your side on September 11th - we did everything we could for you, and we would have done even more if it had been possible. We sat here in shock and cried for you for days. In return, your government shut down the borders between us and demanded that everyone start using passports (probably not a bad idea, though), then started an illegal war that we couldn’t support that wasn’t even against the terrorists responsible for September 11th, and got mad at us for not supporting you. You might note that Canadian troops have been fighting and dying in Afghanistan (where the terrorists actually are) for a long time now.

The U.S. government has had the worst response it possibly could have to the terrorism of September 11th - it’s trying to make sure that no terrorism ever happens again. That just shows how they still don’t understand the people who will commit terrorist acts against them. When someone is willing to die for a cause, you can’t stop them. It’s that simple. Did it ever occur to the U.S. government to say, “I can see you obviously have a serious grievance here. Maybe we can change the way we do a few things IN COUNTRIES THAT AREN’T EVEN OUR OWN.” Instead, they arrogantly chose the path that is most likely to escalate the anger against the U.S., all the while lying to its own people about how safe they’re making them. Instead of trying to make the world a better place, the U.S. government seems to be actively working to make it a worse one for everyone.

ETA: I just realized what the U.S. government is doing with it’s actions at home - it’s the hand-waving that a magician does to deflect attention from what he’re really doing. Damn, that took me a long time to figure out.
[/QUOTE]

You know the posters on the board. You know overwhelmingly we think the Iraq war is wrong. The reasons given were outright lies.

Do you expect much disagreement?

I have said it before and I will say it again. The response and help from Canada and the UK that day was amazing, heartwarming and should never be forgotten. Many other countries too, but especially from those two. Canada made it possible to get all the planes in the air down on the ground. Your government and your people pretty much said, what you would hope a friend would say, “Let us know, what we can do to help”.

So much that has gone wrong since that time we can lump on the administration, but then we made the mistake of re-electing this administration, and no matter whom we voted for, we share the blame for that shameful event. Bush has besmirched our reputation on the world stage. We have ended up being accomplices to this, even if most of us on this board were unwilling accomplices.

Jim

254

[QUOTE=Bosstone]

Schadenfreude probably isn’t it in Nava’s case, though it may apply to others…“darkly amusing” hits a bit closer. (On preview: bemusement is exactly it.)

For the rest of you who held Nava in such esteem, is this really such a crushing blow? It’s not like she said “Yes, they deserved to die, and I hope they burn in hell!” Hell, I thought the overreactions some Americans took were ludicrous myself. No, “fun” wasn’t the right word, but she’s already made her intent clear. Are we going to hold fuckups over everyone’s heads despite evidence that they are not that kind of person?
[/QUOTE]
Don’t know if this will help understand Nava’s possible use of the word ‘fun’ or not, but for my non-native-English-speaking husband and his entire extended family, the distinction between the words ‘fun’ and ‘funny’ are utterly baffling. There is, obviously, a 50/50 chance of getting the right word in any given sentence, and in my experience with them, they get it wrong 100% of the time. No amount of explaining or defining the difference in the terms seems to sink in.

My husband is probably one of the smartest people I’ve ever known, and yet, correction after correction after correction on these two very different words just hasn’t sunk in; he will invariably use ‘fun’ when he means ‘funny’. Every. Single. Time. And both his mother and sister are teachers (English teachers, no less) and even they don’t grok it.

Knowing this gives me the impression that it’s possible that Nava may have meant something more akin to ‘funny’ than ‘fun’, which, while still not a particularly kind sentiment to express, paints quite a different picture of her attitude towards the events as she experienced them. I suspect she thought some of the ridiculous, over-the-top, jingoistic, frantic behaviour was funny. Maybe not “ha ha” funny, but, funny in a roll-your-eyes at the absurdity of it all kind of way.

So, perhaps substitute ‘funny’, or even maybe ‘fascinating’ and we might have a better idea where she was coming from.

255

[QUOTE=faithfool]
…Now, I was just curious about your stance and I hope that helps make my query clearer. Thanks for taking the time to understand and help me understand the various opinions other than my own.
[/QUOTE]

My stance on what? 9/11? I am going to say that it was a bad thing. Call me crazy, but I am going to take the stance that flying airplanes into buildings is a bad thing.

Other than that, my take is that the majority opinion (which as far as I can tell seems to be that we are scared and willing to trade real freedom for the illusion of safety) is shortsighted, ignorant, provincial and fundamentally pathetic. I am also going to say that the majority of the folks posting here being oh so outraged about things are fundamentally hypocritical and not being honest about their feelings (for example I, personally, did not know anyone killed on 9/11, was nowhere near any of the 3 sites and therefore only care in the most academic way about the whole thing. It is no more personally meaningful to me than the people that were killed during the Civil War) . It is one thing if you were actually in DC or NYC that day, but most of the people beating their chests and puffing up like outraged toads were nowhere near, knew no one killed and really just so disassociated from their own humanity that they grasp at any potential emotional response.

256

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
Good comeback.

“all-out war” – what a laughable thing to say, as if there’s a universal definition for it.
[/QUOTE]

So you do equate World War to terrorism. Good to know. It is worth it, You are a Total Ass!

257

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Maybe for you, but not for me. I had no exhilaration, I don’t follow tragedies if you mean the media circus crap like OJ & Princess Di and little blond girl in Colorado.
[/QUOTE]

Some people probably don’t feel any “gawk at the accident” urge.

If I’m guessing (and I am), I’d say most of us do have the urge. Just as an incredibly minor example, watch how the page view counts go through the roof if a Pit thread gets to be fairly long. Dozens, hundreds more hits than posts, from people who want to see, want to know, want to point and laugh, want to be in on the joke, etc.

Considering that we have a whole word dedicated to the phenomenon (rubbernecking), I can’t imagine that it’s an isolated thing that only a handful of humans ever feel.

And in a related phenomenon, notice how many people were this close to fame. They were almost on one of the planes. They were almost in one of the buildings. They were almost in a field in Pennsylvania. They knew someone once who knew someone who knew someone from the middle east!

(My god, at one point in a conversation, I think I mentioned to my husband that I knew a girl who had spent time in Saudi Arabia before coming to my high school. Talk about your incredibly irrelevant factoids!)

So, yeah, you might not do it. Or you might not do it all the time or under all circumstances. But I think that most people do get a thrill from rubbernecking at the OJs and the Anna Nicole Smiths and the Katrinas and the Duke rapes and the tsunamis and yes the 9/11 events. For some, their interest would only extend to very local events. “Did you HEAR? Did you SEE? Oh my GOD!” For some, it’s more interesting when it isn’t people or places they are familiar with. For a third group, it’s best when they kinda know who and they kinda know where and they kinda know someone who knows something.

People find it fun. It’s the only explanation that makes sense.

258

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Maybe for you, but not for me. I had no exhilaration, I don’t follow tragedies if you mean the media circus crap like OJ & Princess Di and little blond girl in Colorado.

9/11 set me into what I realized later was a small bought of depression. It directly affected people I knew and even a cousin that was lucky enough to be out of work that day recovering from pneumonia. I had a lot of family in NYC, friends that worked near the Towers or at least used the path trains to commute. My mom had cousins on the FDNY. Thankfully, my family lost no one. My circle had many near misses however. My town lost 22 people. The town I grew up with lost another 18 including the brother of someone I went to high school with. My cousin lost 10 friends on that day and her job was gone. She moved out of the city shortly after.

I don’t really understand your point of comparing peoples reactions to 9/11 to Harry Potter.

Jim
[/QUOTE]

Don’t you? I avoid a lot of those media circuses - and I avoided 9/11 as well. But I get it. I get rubbernecking. I get that sometime something happens that fascinates me - maybe with good motives, maybe with poor ones. Good motives - I was fascinated by the Terry Schivo thing - not the media circus, not entertained by what her family was going through - but I found the issues around end of life and rights to be really important to me.

On the entertainment level, I admit that I’m FASCINATED by the trainwreck that is Brittney Spears or Lindsey Lohan right now. As a fairly decent human being, I can hope they pull their lives together, but honestly, its all about the entertainment shock. These are REAL PEOPLE. I am not proud that I’m getting entertainment value from their lives - but I am. And I’m far from alone.

The people who died on 9/11 were very real people to the people who knew them. But to most human being on the planet, they weren’t known. They were characters we saw on TV. Its like watching Titanic - real people died almost 100 years ago on that ship, but now we watch the movie and those people are reduced to characters - its a story. The closer you are to an event, the more real the players are. But distance makes it less real. Until the real people are almost indistinguishable emotionally from characters in a Harry Potter novel. In fact, to people who read Harry Potter, the death of characters in that novel might hit harder than the death of strangers - probably does. How many of us cried reading “Deathly Hallows” - and how many of us cried the last time the news told us another soldier had died in Iraq?

259

Ok nonymouse, I appreciate you going ahead and answering that despite how badly I botched what I was trying to say. But just to let you know, you conclusively cleared things up by stating “the majority of the folks posting here.” An awful lot of times there is no clarification on pronouncements to make it apparent who the author of a post is discussing. I’ve noticed that thing, in and of itself, ends up rankling lots of people. And yes, I meant your opinions of the participants in this thread (as I took thought saw a reference to) and not the WTC attacks. I believe we can all agree that was a bad thing.

260

[QUOTE=jsgoddess]
…

People find it fun. It’s the only explanation that makes sense.
[/QUOTE]

Strange, I can see the OJ crap seeming like just another soap or drama, but do you really think people looked at Katrina and 9/11 the same way?

I guess, I cannot distance myself from these as I had family directly involved in both. The Tsunami was tragic, but a distance event for me and I sent a small donation and never really dwelled on it or the reports.