Background: I’m an Australian, and I associate with Australians and New Zealanders, although I’m not currently in Australia nor New Zealand.
We Antipodeans tend to be a bit abrasive and insensitive.
But the two stupid fuckers who think, independently of each other, have told me this week that the WTC bombing was “kind of” justified as a valid reaction by a disadvantaged people against an imperialist nation, need a good sharp kick in the head as a wake-up call.
I haven’t been a fan of US foreign policy over the years, but nothing excuses the loss of life in the WTC attack.
I feel like knocking some teeth out. Its a disgrace.
Worse, I was told on the weekend by a pilot friend of mine that a certain city in a certain country has bars which put on celebratory free drinks post-WTC - not because they thought about the loss of human life (didn’t cross their minds?!), but because they thought it was about time the US got its come-uppance. Maybe this isn’t true, I don’t know, but his girlfriend told him it was and she was there.
You dumb fucking stupid ignorant shithead fuck-knuckles. I don’t care about your insecurity and what you think is a lack of rightful influence in the world, show some fucking empathy.
I’m so mad over this: I had to tell this story somewhere.
Thanks for your comments. Obviously these folk haven’t really thought through their arguments, have they? Be sure and ask them, if you get the chance, how the slaughter of thousands of innocents equates to a country “getting its comeuppance”.
Seriously, I think that when loss of life is far from people, it’s easier for them to think it’s a smaller tragedy than it is. Surely that’s the only way they could convince themselves it was “justified”–by being blind about what really happened on that day and just how many people died, and in what circumstances. I have to guess that being halfway around the world must facilitate that.
I can only hope that these cretins come to the United States and begin to spout off about these feelings after a few drinks. In fact, I’d really like to be there when it happened. The jail time would be more than worth it.
Don’t think for one moment that I agree (this is such a touchy issue that it’s hard to approach).
There’s a difference between saying “I can see which US foreign policies made the bad guys mad” and saying “The attacks were justified because of US foreign policy”. I think it’s possible to see what inspired the action and yet still think Al Queda are so totally and completely wrong to have reacted the way they did. Nothing justifies the attacks. However, if we’re looking for reasons, it’s possible to identify the things that set the bad guys off. Do you get what I’m saying? That ok, maybe Bin Laden’s crew found themselves a reason to be mad at the US, but the action they took in reaction was wrong, wrong, wrong and can never be justified and did not fit the “crime” they imagined had been committed against them, and was committed against people who had nothing to do with the situation. That, and I believe his “holy war” has more to do with making money than fighting Islam’s enemies. But he took an American policy, screamed to his people that it was wrong, and used it to incite anger against the US. Once he had his followers, he struck out in a big way to make himself into more of a hero to these angry, misguided people. Justified - no. The wheel that set the Al Queda war machine into motion - yes.
The reason I say this is because I’ve seen people fighting it out on this point, and most make no distinction between those who think it was justified, and those who think they can see where everything went wrong but don’t think it was justified.
I think I’m making a terrible mess of what I’m trying to say. PLEASE don’t think that I think anyone deserved what happened on September 11. It was a crime against the whole world.
Cranky:Seriously, I think that when loss of life is far from people, it’s easier for them to think it’s a smaller tragedy than it is. Surely that’s the only way they could convince themselves it was “justified”–by being blind about what really happened on that day and just how many people died, and in what circumstances. I have to guess that being halfway around the world must facilitate that.
I agree. It’s the same sort of “distancing” that lets many Americans discount or dismiss the suffering of other people in distant regions of the world—we don’t have to pay too much attention to it, so it must not really matter, or it must have made sense on some level. This is not a good or conscientious way to think, no matter who’s doing it.
Still mad. I keep thinking of people having free shots and toasting innocents’ deaths.
I’m trying to find the guy’s e-mail so I can post the substance of what he wrote (not his name) but I deleted it, and emptied my deleted box (electronic flushing of toilet).
People in Palestine have lost family as well, and other people have suffered as a result of US foreign policy. The US maintains bases in countries where the US isn’t wanted by many people. It doesn’t justify the WTC attacks. If terrorists wanted to run an empty plane into the empty Statue of Liberty and kill themselves to make a point, then I don’t condone it, but at least they only kill themselves, and attack a symbol of American influence. Ending other people’s existences is not the way to achieve ends.
I read in the Economist this week that the US and the Saudis would both like to remove the 5000 US troops in Saudi Arabia, before the attacks, but now they can’t do it because it looks like they’d given in to terrorism. So much for achieving their goals. Totally pointless.
I usually keep away from the Pit, but thought this needed ventilating.
I’m being coy, because I don’t think it would help to spread scurrilous rumours and tarnish the reputation of an otherwise nice city without independent confirmation. There is someone who posts at these boards whose opinion I respect and who is a proud resident of that city. That person would rightfully lambast me for being a dickhead and besmirching his home on the basis of idle gossip.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Dave Stewart *
**
[QUOTE
I’m being coy, because I don’t think it would help to spread scurrilous rumours and tarnish the reputation of an otherwise nice city without independent confirmation. There is someone who posts at these boards whose opinion I respect and who is a proud resident of that city. That person would rightfully lambast me for being a dickhead and besmirching his home on the basis of idle gossip. **[/QUOTE]
OK, now that you’ve gotten all the obligaotry disclaimers out of the way, you can name the place. We all understand that it’s unconfirmed, etc., etc. Once the place is named the rumor can be confirmed or dispelled by people who might know, such as your friend “who posts at these boards [and] whose opinion [you] respect and who is a proud resident of that city.” This much is certain: Leaving this as a mystery does little to advance anyone’s understanding of how some people, in some parts of the world, view WTC or American foreign policy (if indeed it was displeasure with the latter that caused some people to toast the demise of thousands of innocents).
This is about ignorance and lack of self-esteem more than anything else. The people concerned live in a desensitized society where feeling for strangers is lacking, and have been told throughout their lives that the US and other foreigners have exploited and oppressed them. They can’t help it.
The guys who told me by e-mail and to my face were an Australian and a New Zealander respectively (explaining my introduction). They don’t have the luxury of that excuse.
I won’t say which city - it could be Jamestown or Jo’berg or Jakarta - it doesn’t matter, and I’m loathed to mudsling a person or a place: the complete lack of empathy is what upset me.
As a non-American, I think there should be more connection made between the reaction of the Midwest: “Why do they hate us?” and the schemes cooked up in the back-alleys of Middle Eastern cities that daily feel the oppression of western-backed totalitarians, militias and invaders.
And when you consider the sweep of humanity involved, the east-west path from Algeria to Pakistan, it is not a minor consideration.
While the actions of the latter can not be justified, their continuing violence towards innocents is inevitable while the formers’ disengagement with their nation’s foreign policies continue.
I agree with that entirelyBalmain Boy(I assume you are in Sydney, given your name?)
(Thankfully, a recent poll shows that over 80% of Americans now consider foreign relations a top priority, compared to little more than 10 % before: source - this week’s Economist, yet again).
Extending that view, though, to say that conduct which is is inevitable is justifiable, is another thing entirely.
I’ve heard this sentiment from two american citizens and one foriegn national living here in Salt Lake City. I advised all 3 that they were free to leave this country and find lodging in the middle east or the Central American shithole one of the american citizen’s parents worked so hard to leave in order to give him a better chance in life. In fact, I insisted for their own safety that they follow my advice before they voiced their opinion very much.
Wow. That is a bit disturbing. I assumed they were simply passing on word of such sentiment elsewhere. Presumably they’re beyond the teenage phase of saying anything to grab attention. If they were committed hardcore Trotskyists or something, I could understand it. Otherwise, I can’t think of an explanation other than talking without thinking.
I always wonder what people mean by this statement. That the actual people working in the WTC deserved to die for U.S. foreign policies which they quite possibly did not even support and maybe even condemned? And what about all the non-Americans who died? They’re also part of the U.S. come-uppance?
I’m pretty sure that those who make this statement are not aware of what it implies. If they are, of course, that’s even worse.
Pennylane, I think there’s a perception that every American walks around, arrogant with the knowledge that no one can touch him or his country. It’s no exaggeration to say the Sept 11 attacks shocked the nation, and introduced widespread fear to the population. Not only that, but an icon of Western trade and decadence was destroyed, and the attention of the whole world was captured. There are people who think that Americans as a whole thought they were untouchable, and this attack has shown them that they are not.
Then you get into the whole “payback” for their involvement in the Middle East, for trade sanctions, for dominating the Global Economy, for the prosperity of the nation, for the immorality of the people, etc, etc. These people have spent lifetimes making lists of reasons why they hate America.
The come-uppance doesn’t have anything to do with the people killed. It’s about 1) Staging a successful attack on American soil 2) Using their own people as a weapon against them 3) Destroying their sense of wellbeing and security 4) Destroying a physical monument to their extravegance. Those who died were no concern of the group behind it, who no doubt believe that Muslims who died would be rewarded in the afterlife if they were deserving, and the rest were irrelevant.
A couple of days after the WTC attacks happened, I was talking to my father about the events. He basically said, “They had it coming to them. Those Yanks won’t be so bloody arrogant now.”
This really makes me mad, and if I’m honest, more than a little uncomfortable. First of all, whatever the terrorists’ intentions, it wasn’t just Americans that were killed. People from dozens of countries perished in the rubble, including some of our own. So, it’s not just “those Yanks”.
Secondly, I realise that the terrorists have a major beef with the USA. But, goddamnit, that doesn’t mean that the loss of life can be justified as a result. Those people were just going to work to support their families, and did not deserve to die. How can anyone just flippantly brush off the fact that these people were roped into these unfortunate events through no fault of their own?
