Neanderthals + Cro-Magnon=Children?

The Lapedo Child cite was “a point in every direction” so it is a good thing you provided the quotes yourself.

And did both sides of the argument- very fair of you.

However… It does look as if we polished off every other older form of Homo xxxx xxxx, why would we spare the Neanderthals?

If they co-existed and mated in one spot, why not do the same in other places? (I can feel the ground moving now) You see, I’ve read that we have more Neanderthal bone finds than any other kind of Hominid/Homo xxxx xxxx - other than what you and Nanobyte might like to dig up from behind St Mary’s Church. We should know about lots of little Lapedo children if it did happen.

In Israel it looks like alternating habitation rather than co-existing and reproducing (Qafzeh) and when the modern humans came down through Europe the habitation pattern is spoke of as a mosaic. Not blending but lump of moderns here a lump of Neanderthals there.

They kept house differently, hunted differently, spoke differently, used (for the most part) different tool kits, moderns moved continually while the Neanderthals kept a home base and hunted in a 30 mile radius.

The Cro Magnons used to tell the Neanderthals to go stand over there, and they did, 'til they fell right off the edge of the planet.


Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using the force? - A. Foley

I’ve been going back an forth with Bernard in
news sci.archealogy about the birthing.

Hi Bernard,
I’m not sure if I was that clear so I’ll try again. Neanderthals have larger heads than the groups they were contemporary with. I was curious if it was some adaptive advantage for them. Neanderthal women have a larger pelvis and probably a larger opening. Another guess was that they might have delivered children with larger heads. You said that it probably was not the case. I believe you but unsure why that is. So the question I posed, " Is it just that a specific adaptation by Neanderthal females would have taken too much time to adapt to a larger fetus?"
The intention of the question was to ask if Neanderthal birth head size is the same as moderns then why is that? Does the adaptation of getting to a larger birth head size take too long say an estimated 500,000 years which leaves out the possibility? The question assumes that Neanderthal children’s head sizes were getting larger for whatever the adaptive reason. Again the clumsily asked question asks if the possibility was thought not possible because such an adaptation would have taken too long to happen.
David Kirkpatrick
Marlborough, MASS

Bernards response:
This information taken from M.L. Weiss and A.E. Mann. 1990.Huamn Biology
and Behavior
5th ed. Glenview, IL :Scott foresman p. 432

Trouts1: This will probably not format correctly.
years ago name
skull size

3.5 million Australopithecus africanus 400-500 ml
2.0 million Homo habilis 500-775 ml
1.5 million Homo erectus 800 ml
1.0 million Homo erctus 1000 ml
200,000 early homo sapiens 1200-1300 ml
70,000 Homo sapiens neanderthal 1300-1700 ml
40,000 Homo sapiens sapiens (modern) 1350-1450 ml

A couple of things to notice. Remember that in a previous post I told you that in apes adult skulls are about two times the size of birth skulls. I also pointed out that apparently pelvic widths allowing about 350 ml to be born atre aboutthe limit a female can have and still walk upright on two
feet (a basic human characteristic). If early hominids were following the ape pattern ( reasonable assumption with common ancestors), the limit of this approach was reached about the time of H. habilis (1.5 MYA) (350 x2 =
700 ml). About this time a entirely new strategy developed, neoteny, giving birth at an earlier fetal stage so that more development will take place AFTER birth. Neoteny allowed later hominids to give birth to babies with 350ml or less skull volume and still end up with mature individuals with
larger skulls. Humans, as I pointed out< have 4 times as large adult skulls as birth skulls. Thus, H. erectus could have had babies with 250 ml skulls and still end up with adults at a 1000 ml.

What I am arguing is that Neanderthals did not have to evolve any adaptation the adaptation for neoteny had already taken place a million years before. Yes, Neanderthals had bigger skulls on the average than truly modern humans, but the range encompassed that found in modern humans
(1300-1700, compared to 1350-1450). There are humans who have skulls 2100 ml, and Anatole France’s skull was 1900 ml.

Apparently the average region of 1400 ml is sufficient for our needs and because it is 350 x 4 it also about the limit because it has no changed very much in the last 100,000 years.

I don’t think that Neanderthal women had wider pelvises than modern humans,
because their babies were neotenous and developed their ultimate brain sizes after birth.

I hope this helps.

Bernard Ortiz de Montellano

Jois wrote:

Not attacking you Jois, but I’m not sure this set of facts proves your point.

The lion and the tiger live very different feline lifestyles today. The lion hunts in a pride, the tiger is a solitary, ambush hunter. Obviously, their appearance is quite different as well. Yet, and lion and a tiger can be successfully bred to produce something called a “liger”. [Similar to the horse+donkey=mule example above.] My guess (and it is just that) is that modern humans may have been able to successfully breed with Neanderthals, and it may have actually happened from time to time, but that was probably the exception rather than the rule. Humans and Neanderthals, I expect, generally kept to their own kind the way horses, donkeys, tigers and lions do today.

The link is one click off: click at in the red section to the left on the second symbol for Articles Online. It gets you right to
The Lapedo Child: Lagar Velho 1 and our Perceptions of the Neandertals

From: Daily University Science News
http://unisci.com/stories/19994/1026991.htm

The link gives info on Neanderthal being more disbursed at a later time than indicated by Iberia alone. The site is Vindija cave in Croatia and gives Neanderthal an extended 6000 year reign in central Europe. The fossils also show evidence of modern traits. The tools found suggest with the new dating that Neanderthal may have been the maker of tools more commonly found with moderns.

Jois
When you say Neanderthal came “over the top”, was that through Germany/Russia/Moscow or Scandinavia?

Some of the pictures I’ve seen for the last glaciating show middle and southern Europe ice free. That’s not to say they did not go to Asia but at least I don’t think it’s due to ice.

I’ve also been looking for Neanderthal in Japan and China but can’t find any references specific to Neanderthal. I find epictus and moderns but no Neanderthal. ??

Have any of you read Clan of the Cave Bear? It’s a book, historical fiction technically, but a better title would be historically probability. It talked of hybrids between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon. There were complications, be certain, but according to bone structure or whatever these archeologists looked at, it was possible. These hybrids eventually were assimilated and formed into the human race today. According to the book, The Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal lived in the same general area for hundreds of years without realizing it. When they did, needless to say, there was war, and that’s why no Neanderthal’s exist today; killed off by the Cro-Magnon. So all that exists today is part of the gene-structure, not by any means a largely significant part, but a part of our genes none the less.

trouts1, that was my point about archaic Homo sapiens taking over all of the niches that Homo erectus had inhabited. Unless Homo erectus survived up to 100k years ago in the Far East, or unless multi-regionalism is correct in which the Far Eastern Homo erectuses slowly became archaic Homo sapiens, you seem to be left with a Homo void in China and SE Asia.

If Out of Africa I is the Homo erectus migration (1500k years ago) and Out of Africa II is the Homo sapiens sapiens (100k years ago), don’t you need an Out of Africa 1.5 (700-500K years ago) to populate Europe and Asia with somebody not Homo erectus. The only alternative would seem to be that there was multiregionalism evolution between Homo erectus and archaic Homo sapiens throughout Eurasia.

The confusing (or confused) classifications of Homo antecessor and Homo heidelbergensis and bone fragments with a mixture of their features along with those of Homo ergaster and Homo erectus, seem to indicate intermediate steps between H. erectus and Neanderthals, exactly what you would expect in a multiregionalism evolution. It does not seem likely that this was also not happening in the other 2/3 of Eurasia, even condidering the glaciers. Maybe these regional archaic populations gave a genetic flavoring to the intrusive Homo sapiens sapiens to produce the modern races and probably races that no longer exist.

I always thought that the reason that brow ridges are prevalent in modern males and almost always lacking in females was due to some conception of beauty 50K years ago. The poor neglected Neanderthal and/or archaic females were left by their cave hubbies for the hot, new Homo sapiens sapiens hussies.

Liger?
What?
Liger?

Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley

I apologize, but ligers? – unworthy!


Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley

The liger and tigon are zoo-bred hybrids that don’t occur in nature.

http://archaeology.miningco.com/education/archaeology/library/atlas/bljapan.htm http://www.fcc.sophia.ac.jp/Faculty/Keally/palaeol.html
Mipsman: The above site has some good related info for this OP RE:Asia

On your last post about the “Homo” void. The are references for Early and Late Homo but I’ve only seen it in reference to rectus. So I’m not sure what that means as there is H erectus for sure so your probably referring to heidelbergensis, ergaster, ancient, archaic & etc types. For China Japan I agree. And what happened to Neanderthal in this region? I have not found one specific reference to N yet in this region.

I agree about something fuzzy for the Out of’s which only account for a specific groups and leave others floating. I’ve cited above references for erectus which were out already **before]/b] the Out of dates. Out of 1.5 is fine with me and I’d leave room for a regional possibility of erectus developing into other forms outside of Africa. For your “Maybe these regional archaic populations gave a genetic flavoring to the intrusive Homo sapiens sapiens to produce the modern races and probably races that no longer exist.” They probably all went the same way as N but contributing to the pool.

For N there is stuff like this for example from the above links:

Part of the problem for this area is the language differences between Eastern and Western scholars. In Japan where there is money the tendency is to stick to Japan and not trace origins off the island group.

I’ll have to train my spell checker: Mousetrap == Mousterian

Finally: for pre moderns in Asia http://www.cruzio.com/~cscp/maps.htm

Most sites discussing Asia types have no representation of Neanderthal and there is a curious lack of naming types between erectus and modern. So I wrote on site owner who had the best Asian site.

Gotta love Daetler.

Sorry to hit and run.


Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley

spoke- I was re-reading this thread and found out YOU were the person to bring up the tiger/lion cross! Well! That was a surprise and I was happy to blame Trouts1 for that one.

I did use Alta Vista and look up ligers and the first few cites said it was not a natural occurence but a evolutionary waste and dead end done in zoos. Gave it a real thumbs down.

What I was thinking was that lions and tigers are both pack animals and that this sterile liger would be acceptable to neither group. I wouldn’t think it would survive growing up never mind gaining the cooperations needed to hunt and survive as an adult.

Applied to Neanderthals and Cro Magnon, we can guess that childhood for the Cro Magnon’s child was pretty similar to our own but we know nothing about Neanderthal’s. Even today a kid who is too tall or too short for his age gets a hard time from his peers.

Would the Neanderthals tolerate a child who looked puney? grew slowly? needed so much extra help for much longer than the normal Neanderthal child? How about the other way around?

I know these are not questions that can be answered but to point out that cross breeding is not as simple as it looks from the donkey experience.


Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley

Jois wrote:

trouts1 wrote:

Granted. But that may be because tigers and lions do not have overlapping ranges in nature. Therefore, there’s no opportunity for the hybrid to occur in nature.

Anyway, the point I was making is that even though the tiger and the lion lead very different lifestyles, and look quite different, they are still genetically able to breed. I was rebutting a line of reasoning in one of **Jois’**s posts which implied that Neanderthals and modern humans led very different lifestyles and therefore probably didn’t, or couldn’t, interbreed.

Aside from genetic issues, I don’t think the “different lifestyles” argument works because I don’t think the fact that the two groups lived differently would prevent the occasional sexual liason between the two. (Look, if some guys will mess around with sheep and various farm animals, I don’t think they would have balked at the prospect of coupling with a Neanderthal.)

jois, I wonder if a more appopriate model of Cro-Magnon - Neanderthal interaction would be closer to the eventual assimilation of some coastal Indian tribes into the California Anglo/Hispanic culture. (That is the assimilation with which I am most familiar.) Here a people were displaced, despised, and on many occasions actually hunted down by the more technological culture. However, some hung on on the periphery of Anglo culture, distressed, dejected, demoralized and dissipated until they were subsumed culturally and genetically into the lowest economic strata of the new dominant culture. Not a pretty picture but one that has occured many times in recorded history and might have happened before.

Thank you all, this has been a great thread. I’m sure I’ll post back to here on some of the leftover odds and ends but for some of the questions, I’m going to start other threads.


Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley