Need help from the bible scholars

well, I agree, it’s a very good book if you are looking for wisdom

Moderator Note

Let’s drop the personal remarks and rolleyes. No warnings issued, but keep it civil.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

Moderator Note

To keep this in GQ, let’s not go down that particular path and restrict the discussion to infanticide (killing a baby that has been born naturally).

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

As we have seen, those don’t actually answer the question at all, since they don’t preclude the exceptions that have been cited.

Those rules were burned in stone by God. Perhaps there’s a reason they were burned in stone instead of God relying on his Earthy servant’s interpretations of his word.

I, for one, would like to know the stakes of this bet.

Malthus, I think you raise a good point. I agree with Colibri, I read the OP as asking something along the lines of “are there any places/verses in the OT in which rape and baby killing are condoned.” I still maintain that the answer to this is clearly yes. However, his exact question is a little ambiguous, so it would be helpful if the OP clarified. If he meant “condoned at all times,” then the answer is just as clearly no.

I don’t think he’s been back to this thread though.

Moderating

This being GQ, unless you can produce some archaeological evidence supporting this statement, it has no bearing on the discussion. If you want to witness about your religious beliefs, take it to Great Debates.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

As I said, anybody with any knowledge of the Bible at all wouldn’t think that it condoned rape and baby killing in general, and no one would reasonably make a bet to that effect. I think the OP simply worded his post poorly. Whether he wins his bet or not depends on whether he worded it just as poorly.

Yes, but what we don’t know is whether the OP is a reasonable person with any knowledge of the Bible. Keep in mind you and I are in agreement here.

Technically, the translation is “no murder.”

There’s Exodus 22:23

This is often cited as the reason Jewish religion does not condemn abortion. The wording is ambiguous, in the original language not specifying clearly whether the passage means the child is born alive and survived, or miscarried. But the implication is that the death of a baby is a property crime, punishable by fine - as opposed to murder, punishable by death or the famous “eye for an eye…” quote.

Don’t forget, too, the wisest of Israeli Kings, Solomon, offered to cut a baby in half to solve a lawsuit - although that may have been a bluff.

Technically, “לֹ֥֖א תִּֿרְצָֽ֖ח” is “do not murder”. “תִּֿרְצָֽ֖ח” is a verb. If it was a noun, it would be “רֶצַח”.

I suppose I should clarify - causing “…the death of a baby/fetus before it is born (or perhaps during childbirth)…” is a property crime.

Well, definitely bluff. But not a hollow one, or else the fake ma would have protested as well rather than being ready to go along with it. Which begs the question: at what point after being born does a kid change from damageable property to murderable person?

(looks at his own children) Um…need answer fast.

Speaking of Biblical kings - one of the things I find interesting about the OT accounts is that they are typically not portrayed as stainless heroes. Even the best of them are depicted, deliberately, as monsters of vanity, greed and violence.

Indeed, the whole notion of kingship is held questionable (no doubt because the book was redacted by priests!). Samuel is scathing on this score, when the Israelites ask him to install a king:

This being GQ, it is surely acceptable to consider references made in context as to which of the laws were said to have been burned into stone by God versus written down by men, without anyone having to step up and say “Nuh-uh, you can’t say ‘God’ did anything unless you can show me your ‘God’ on a microscope slide”.

Technically I suppose this should be in ATMB but ain’t no-one got time for that.

Will this verse do for you?

Admittedly that’s from the enslaved Jews who were a tad pissed off at the Babylonians, not from God directly.

ETA; Just realized this was what **Chronos **was referring to in post #2. Ah well.

Why do so many people insist on quoting the KJV in this day and age? Even most evangelicals don’t use it anymore.

Anyway, ninja’d, but I came to post Psalm 137 (in a more modern translation):

That’s not at all what the poster said, nor what I said in moderating the post.

If you don’t have time to bring it up in ATMB, then you don’t have time to bring it up here. Let’s drop it.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator