Need help identifying a Naval Gun

I have been researching the US submarine S-49 and have written a book about it. It’s the only US submarine to be privately owned. It was purchased (with the approval of the Secretary of the Navy) from the scrapyard that had posted the highest bid in 1931. The purchasers were two politicians from Revere, Massachusetts, , who fixed it up and put it on exhibition in Revere. Two years later they had it towed up the St. Lawrence and through the Great Lakes to Chicago. At Montreal a picture was taken that appears to show a replacement Deck Gun on board. (The original 4"/50 Deck Gun had, of course, been removed before scrapping, like the periscopes and batteries). It doesn’t appear in any other images before or after this date.

It’s a very strange looking gun, and I’d like to identify it. It looks a little like a 37 mm Maxim “Pom Pom” gun, but with a weird cylinder on top. For al I know, it isn’t really a gu at all, but might be a contraption made out of old pipes. In any event, I’d like to find out what it is.

Imgur

Any ideas?

Just a bump because no one has answered this yet.

I’ve asked other people with some knowledge of military artillery. The consensus seems to be that the cylinder probably isn’t part of the gun, but is something behind it. The Pom Pom Maxim gun is the favorite, although the gun in the picture is missing the rectangular part with the belt-feed mechanism. There are other, completely tubular things this might be.

I’ve found other pictures of the sub with the gun in place, but this is still far and away the best photo of it.

It’s hard to make out. I just saved it and am going to try to enlarge it. Maybe a better view will help.

Research shows no mention of a replacement deck gun at all, just the original one you mentioned. It was reactivated and used to test a mine field.

"The U.S. Navy apparently reacquired S-49 about 1941 at Baltimore “as equipment” for use in experimental work at the Naval Mine Warfare Proving Ground, Solomons, Maryland.[1] During this work, she sank on 16 December 1942 in 102 feet (31 m) of water in the Patuxent River. "

Apparently, the test was a success. The exact location was given so, if the hull hasn’t been entirely eaten away after all these years, one could dive and check out the gun.

https://www.history.navy.mil/content/history/nhhc/our-collections/photography/numerical-list-of-images/nhhc-series/nh-series/NH-105000/NH-105902-KN/_jcr_content/mediaitem/image.img.jpg/1434405419304.jpg

That’s the gun on a USN ship:

The reason I wrote the book is that most of the material on the internet about the S-49 is incomplete, misleading, or wrong.

It certainly doesn’t mention the replacement gun, because at that point the S-49 was in private hands – the first US sub to be privately owned (and the only one until modern “museum ships”. The owners used it until 1941, when it became both expensive and dangerous to try and pilot a submarine around in the Ocean. The Navy initially turned down their offer to use the sub as a training vessel, but the Naval Research people changed their minds while the S-49 was en route to the scrapyard in Baltimore. But it never got there. It was te-routed to the Philadelphia Navy Yard, where it was fixed up for diving again. Then it was towed to Patuxent River and used for testing of magnetostriction depth charge doppler fuzes – not mine fields.

It did NOT sink on 16 December 1942 – at that point it hadn’t even reached Philadelphia.

From what I’ve seen, the gun (or mock-up of one) was placed there shortly before the S-49 left Boston under tow in May 1933 and was removed within days of the sub reaching Chicago in June 1933.
So I’m looking for information about a replacement gun (or a mock-up of one) placed aboard by the civilian owners.

The dive is “extremely challenging”, because the current is fast and visibility is nearly zero. There’s a YouTube videio of a dive to the S-49 online. Some people call it “braille diving”, for obvious reasons.

The ship IS eaten away, which adds to the challenge. But there’s not point in diving to look for the gun. As I say, it disappears from pictures of the sub in early June 1933 and never re-appeared.

Thanks, by the way, for looking into this. I didn’t mean to come off as snippy. I’m just amazed at the amount of misinformation about the ship, even on official US Navy websites.

For what little it’s worth, all the pictures of S-49 in its civilian ownership phase that I can find show empty deck where the deck gun belonged.

If there was a mocked up or demilled deck gun mounted before the Navy took it back, you may have the only picture of it, and there may be not be any documentary record of it.

In which case, knowing the name of your book would be really neat! :slight_smile:

So, doesn’t that suggest it would have to be a mock up? Would it even be legal for a private company to mount a live, powerful weapon on a sub that is no longer military equipment?

Sorry to bug you, but this stuff interests me. LOL

It is indeed. I have other pictures of it on US ships. And on gun carriages on land. It was a popular gun. But, AFAIK, it was never a submarine gun. It probably couldn’t be submerged and used quickly, and the belt feed mechanism probably didn’t like being inundated.

And, as your picture shows, there’s a long section with rectangular cross-section that houses the belt feed mechanism. And I don’t see that in my picture.

True museum ships have demilitarized weapons for display – usually, the actual service weapons or replacements representing the type – but rendered incapable of chambering ammo, firing, or acting in any fashion.

Plugged barrels, removed breech, trigger or firing group removed or immobilized, that kind of thing.

Ah, thanks! Makes sense.

Yes. I only noticed it recently in a picture taken in May 1933 in the Lachine canal in Montreal as it made its way upriver. After that I searched through all the other images I’d collected, and found that the gun only appeared in four of them, all from May or June 1933. This was the only shot where you got a good look at it. Shortly after it arrived in Chicago, apparently, it was removed.

I’ve made a good effort to get as much documentary evidence as I could from this period – mostly newspaper reports, but also a lot of stuff from the Chicago Fair archives. None of it mentions a gun on board during the trip to Chicago.

Yeah, you have to wonder about why is it so short lived. I’m sure you have thought it through, but what would be the reason for installing and then removing it quickly?

You have to keep in mind that at this point the S-49 was no longer a Navy ship. It was a privately-owned floating exhibit officially owned by the National Marine Exhibiting Company, which was basically William M. Keevey and Francis J. Chrestensen, a couple of Revere, Massachusetts politicians (they were also a shipfitter/inspector/instructor and a salesman, respectively). The sub they purchased had been stripped by the Navy before being put out to scrap. There were holes bored in the Diesel cylinders, the batteries had all been removed, the periscopes (three of them) taken away, the deck gun removed, the torpedoes taken away, and the diving controls locked. What they had was not so much a submarine as a submarine-shaped float that could no longer propel itself or dive. It rode high out of the water without the weight of all those lead Plante batteries.

So they had it towed up to a shipyard in Chelsea where it was fixed up for show. They took out several bulkheads to make it easier to walk around. They took off the torpedo-loading hatches for and aft (the S-49 had a rearward-facing torpedo tube, in addition to four forward-facing ones) and had nice, big stairways put in them, so customers could go in and out without having to twist themselves through hatches. They had it all painted and greased and polished up for show. But they couldn’t disguise the lack of periscopes or the deck gun.

For the former, they simply said that periscopes were a.) expensive and b.) covered by super-secret patents, so they didn’t have any on board. Sorry. Later on they added the excuse that, if they had a periscope, it would slow down the tours, because everyone would want to look through it.

As for the deck gun, the glaringly vacant gun deck with its unoccupied mounting hardware showed to even to those unfamiliar with submarines that something significant was missing. This hadn’t bothered them for the more than a year that they had the sub on exhibit at Point of Pines, Revere, but evidently they wanted to remedy this when they took the sub “on the road” to the big 1933 Chicago World’s Fair. They might have gotten it even sooner, but there isn’t enough photographic evidence to tell, and no documentary evidence says anything about it. None of the photos of the sub at Point of Pines shows a deck gun. It’s possible that they put one on when they took the sub to display it at the Warren St. Bridge in Boston (near the current Boston Garden). There’s a drawing of the sub advertising it, though, and that doesn’t show a deck gun. It appears that there might be something there in the photograph showing the S-49 with its tug, the Honeywell, in Boston harbor just before they left. But the photo is taken from an angle that makes it hard to see.

So where did it come from? Maybe it’s a mockup, made out of random hardware and pipes. Maybe it was given or loaned to them by one of Keevey’s Navy Yard contacts. If it was an old Maxim “Pom Pom” gun, that makes some sense. That gun was definitely an old model, predating the Spanish-American war. It was used on several Navy vessels (but not submarines), so it was somewhat plausible. They didn’t put the S-40 on exhibition on her trip up to the St. Lawrence, up the river, then through the Great Lakes (except for an ill-advised and disastrous showing in Ogdensburg NY, on the St. Lawrence. This was rapidly cancelled when the crowd got much bigger than anticipated)

The very first photo of the S-49 at the Chicago Fair seems to show something where the gun was placed, but it’s too poor to get a good view of it. By two days later it was gone, and appears in no more photographs.

So why was it taken away? Several possibilities:

1.) It was only a bogus mock-up made our of pipes bolted together to givde the impression of a real gun. But once they started letting paying customers come on board and see it close up, its nature would be immediately evident. So it had to go.

2.) If it was a real gun, maybe it was only a “loaner” – somebody had to get it from Boston to Chicago, and the S-49 was already going that way.

3.) The Naval officers at the Chicago Fair objected to the improper, non-submarine-based Maxim gun being on the sub. There were several Naval liaisons at the Fair, and they frequently clashed with the S-49’s owners (especially Chrestensen) about all sorts of topics, ranging from inaccurate claims in the shipboard spiels to the guides’ uniforms looking too much like Navy uniforms to the personal conduct of the guides to other things. They might have insisted on the removal of an inappropriate gun. One military man I spoke to said that, if there were such a gun on board, they might even have confiscated it as US Government property. I think, though, if that were the case I’d find complaints about such action in the Chicago Fair papers, and there aren’t any.

So why was it removed? I don’t know. There are several possibilities, but deciding between them depends, in part, upon the nature of the gun that they had on the deck of the S-49. Which I don’t know. Hence my starting this thread.

Sure, that’s what I thought would be the logical consequence of faking one.

Do you mean taking a real, working model or one that had been made inoperable?

My bolding.

That I can also see. I toured USS Cobia this summer and really wanted to slap the guide at times, so I can imagine what a professional would do.

I’m quite impressed with how far you have tracked it down so far. It’s too bad there aren’t better pictures.

I don’t know. I would imagine an inoperable one, because of the Rush-Bagot treaty. Look that one up, if you’re interested – it’s a major outcome of the War of 1812 that’s still honored between the US and Canada. It essentially demilitarizes the Great Lakes. We’re not supposed to have more than one warship apiece, with very limited armaments. Chrestensen made much of the S-49 needing special permission to navigate the Great Lakes because of the treaty, but it was all hokum – the S-49 was no longer a US Naval vessel, and therefore not subject to the treaty. But the Canadians would have frowned on even a non-Naval sub carrying active guns through the Lakes. (Even though an active US sub had passed through to Lake Erie only a year before. How they got away with it, and how a captured German sub did so the same year, I don’t know) But an inactivated gun seems a much more likely proposition.

Yes, and some of the claims were completely inappropriate, and were especially galling coming from guides dressed in what differed only minutely from real Naval uniforms. Especially when such guides were openly flirting with the female guests. I can see why the real Naval officers associated with the Fair blew their collective tops.

Looking at the photo you provided and some various other photos i found online - I don’t think it’s a gun at all. If you follow the pipe-like “barrel” it curves down toward the deck as it goes aft. Same diameter and looks to me as the same structure. It really looks like whatever this piece of equipment is on this photo, just at a different angle:

The other stuff around it appear to just be… stuff. the cylindrical thing above it looks like it could be something behind the sub. It’s really had to tell. But I’ve seen 2-3 other photos online of that curved pipe thing on the deck and that’s what it looks like to me.

That’s an interesting photo you have there. I don’t think I’ve seen it before. I thank you for pointing it out.

That said, I don’t think the object in that photo is the same thing. You can see that it goes down to the railing along the edge of the sub and is curved It doesn’t look like the item in the other pictures, which does not appear to be curved. And the item on the gun deck disappeared within a couple of days of arriving in Chicago.