hi,
I’m new and trying to navigate around your site- I would like to comment on Straight Dope question re the needle eye gate- I hope this gets there if not please forward for me.
there’s a literal and symbolic part to Jesus’ comment. It is reasonable to assume that most cities at the time, especially Jerusalem would have large defensive gates. There would also be a smaller gate within this gate for day-to-day traffic. This is still the practical arrangement in some institutions [eg. [penitentiaries say for security reasons]nowadays
A merchant arriving at this “needle-eye” with his fully loaded camel, would have to divest it “of all his wordly goods” to pass through.
There is no “Eye of the Needle Gate”, and there never has been. The whole story is fabricated to get around the meaning of Jesus’ words: a rich man cannot go to heaven, unless he gives all his wealth to the poor. Rich christians will twist themselves into knots before they will admit that Christ said they cannot enter heaven.
So far, I agree.
But that is more than can be legitimately derived from Christ’s actual words; He goes on to say, “…with God, all things are possible.”
I am not religious and haven’t actually read the Bible, so take this for what it’s worth.
I think what Jesus is saying is this: That rich people tend to ‘worship’ worldly goods, and that only by divesting themselves of their riches (and presumably their desire for riches) can rich people get to Heaven. But that doesn’t mean that the rich are excluded from Heaven; only that they need to adjust their priorities. If a rich person uses his wealth to help the poor, then he can go to Heaven and still be rich. He doesn’t necessarily have to divest himself of all of his possessions. Rather, he needs to put his efforts toward helping those less fortunate than toward amassing greater wealth and power.
Yep, Jesus was a Socialist! 
And what do you have to do to be “with God”? Give away all you own. You can’t just say “I’m with HIm!” and get excused from Jesus’ commandments.
A rich man cannot go to heaven.
This thread is presumably in response to a staff report – What’s the meaning of Jesus’ teaching about the camel going through the eye of a needle? – so it is probably in the wrong forum. I will report that to a mod.
And where does it say that, exactly?
That doesn’t quite make sense. Would rich Christians have invented an embellishment that implies they have to unload all their wealth?
I mean, I’m not trying to defend the validiy of the needle eye gate thing - I think it’s pretty obviously bolted on, but it doesn’t make sense to say that it was invented by someone who wanted to *add *the interpretation that Jesus meant ‘unload all your wealth’, when Jesus is already quoted as saying essentially that in the unembellished text.
A rich man cannot go to heaven.
In gate story, the rich men get to retrieve their material wealth after the camel goes through the gate. So they can have their cake and eat it too. That is how they view going to heaven; since the gate lets them send a camel through the Eye of the Needle, yet keep their riches, so too they can go to heaven with out selling all they own and giving to the poor.
Jesus didn’t say that. He said it was hard, not impossible. In fact, in verse 27, he flat out says, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
The classical interpretation is that Jesus was setting up a prototype of justification by faith. That, no matter how much you’ve done, there is always one more thing you need to do. For the rich person, this was selling his possessions. For the poor, it would something else. Without divine grace, you wouldn’t’ make it to heaven. God makes possible what is impossible for you.
Here’s the entire passage. Make up your own mind.
[QUOTE=Mark 10:17-31 (NIV)]
As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”
“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”
Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”
The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, “Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, “Who then can be saved?”
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God.”
Then Peter spoke up, “We have left everything to follow you!”
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”
[/quote]
You can not be “with God” if you do not follow Christ’s commandments. Sell all you own, and give to the poor. It is not that hard to understand.
A rich man cannot get into heaven.
Fair enough. I don’t think i’ve ever heard that version though- it usually ends with the camel struggling through the gate (i guess it could be argued that retrieval of the goods is implied, but I’ve heard a fair few people tell the story without taking it in that direction)
That’s funny. I thought Jesus only offered one new commandment.
You learn something new every day.
Matthew 10:14
But I’ll leave you with this brief extract to ponder, from “Bors to Elayne: On the King’s Coins” in Taliessin through Logres, by Charles Williams.
The Archbishop answered the lords;
his words went up through a slope of calm air:
“Might may take symbols and folly make treasure,
and greed bid God, who hides himself for man’s pleasure
by occasion, hide himself essentially: this abides—
that the everlasting house the soul discovers
is always another’s; we must lose our own ends;
we must always live in the habitation of our lovers,
my friend’s shelter for me, mine for him.
This is the way of this world in the day of that other’s;
make yourselves friends by means of the riches of iniquity,
for the wealth of the self is the health of the self exchanged.
What saith Heracleitus?—and what is the City’s breath?—
dying each other’s life, living each other’s death.
Money is a medium of exchange.”
A concise demonstration of Christianity Lite, which eschews any of the gospel it finds inconvenient, and strips it down to a vapid platitude: “Be nice to nice people”. No sacrifice required.
I don’t think Jesus would be impressed either.