Billfish678 - this is so far out it could just be the truth.
That’s both horribly disturbing and, within the confines of the Whoniverse, plausible.
Pardon me, I have to go hide behind a sofa…
Ok, seriously, I’ll throw out a WAG about the next episode in the fall: “Let’s Kill Hitler.” I don’t think, as many people seem to, that it will involve the Doctor going back to 30s/40s Berlin and killing Hitler. I think “Hitler” refers to the Doctor himself, and is a reference to the old philosophy queston: “If you went back in time and saw Adolf Hitler when he was an innocent child, would you kill him in order to prevent the holocaust from happening?”
The villains of this story - Madame Kovarian, the Anglican Marines & the Headless Monks - seem to inexplicably hate the Doctor. What did he do to them? Maybe that’s not the question, perhaps the real question is "what will he do in the future?
Recall from the original series that in one possible future, the Doctor’s 12th incarnation becomes the Valeyard. And all throughout Moffat’s run (especially in “Amy’s Choice”), we are dropped clues that the Doctor has a very dark side. I’m betting that Madame Kovarian & her ilk are actually in a sense good guys, who are trying to prevent a future timeline in which the Doctor genuinely does become a malevolent threat to the universe. Essentially, Kovarian is trying to kill Hitler - e.g. the future Doctor.
That would also explain the scene from “the Impossible Astronaut” in which the Doctor very clearly allows himself to be murdered. In fact, I imagine that the Doctor’s spacesuit-wearing assassin will ultimately be revealed to be another timeline version of himself (time paradox be damned. Moffat will find a way to make it work.)
As an aside, I’ve read some speculation that after the conclusion of this season in the fall, BBC-Wales (part-financier of the show) is pushing to put the show on hiatus next year. On his Twitter feed, Moffat insists that there will definitely be a full 7th series next year starring Matt Smith. Conspicuously, he does not say that Karen Gillan or Arthur Darvill will be back. Too bad, although I’m growing a little tired of Amy, Rory has really been a great character. I think it might’ve been an interesting change if Amy returned home to raise baby Melody / River, while Rory spent time travelling with the Doctor (like Doctor Two & Jamie.)
How long until the show resumes? Also, why is there a gap between this episode and the next one again? I forget.
Oh thank GOD! I thought I was the only one who thought this. Amy and her smug “yeah I travel in time and have been all over the universe, I guess it’s kind of interesting” attitude really gets on my tits.
You used Amy and tits in the same sentence.
I’ll be in my bunk.
No we haven’t seen her before. However, since they made sure to tell The Doctor her name right before she died, we WILL see young Lorna. Before the end of the season I’ll bet.
Now, I just rewatched it a couple minutes ago. When the TARDIS shows up to pick up the old fat blue guy the door opens. We don’t see who it is, we only get their sihouette cast on the wall. l
Said silhouette is clearly NOT the Doctor. To me it looks like a woman, possibly wearing a beret. Which screams Lorna, but doesn’t make sense.
Any guesses?
I think they exaggerated the Doctor’s silhouette for that shot, and maybe over did it.
It’s The Doctor. It’s a bow tie, a big chin, quiffy hair.
Does anybody know if any of the remaining episodes will go back to America?
Here in America BBC America was making a huge deal about Doctor Who filming here. And yet, so far the first episode seems to be the only one filmed here.
I mean, I am happy they chose to do an episode here, but with all the hoopla being made I thought there would be more.
No, just the double episode at the start of the series.
Unless they filmed some scenes for use later. But there are no more “America” episodes.
I was hoping that since three months had passed between The Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon that there might be at least one more episode (taking place in America) that would help explain what happened during those three months.
He clearly didn’t know who she was after he spoke to her - knowing what they did when they met is just knowing that that’s what ALWAYS happens when he’s around.
I don’t understand why everyone is claiming that they feel they missed out on something in the “three months later” period. Look, it was made clear what they were all doing in that time, for the sake of brevity and moving the story along the writers clearly decided not to show it all blow by blow and just had salient points so we could a) have an initial “WTF???” moment when it looks like FBI dude has turned, only to be proven wrong and b) some cool bits like River jumping to her “death” and everyone leaping out of their body bags and into the TARDIS.
We KNOW what happened in that time, they split up to look for the Silence. They did so, marking themselves each time they found one (and there were no shortage). Given that the Silence effectively control the planet at this time FBI dude had to go along with the charade of restraining the Doctor and hunting down the enemies of the Silence/government. Fine, you don’t see them making their own separate ways, stopping for lunch, waiting for buses, going to the toilet and generally going about the process of doing all this for three months, but you don’t need any of that because it doesn’t drive the story forward: welcome to the world of grown up entertainment.
Wow, who pissed in your Cheerios? It’s just a TV show. No need to get so emotional.
Well, this may help. Since I was in utter geek-out mode today - I have drafted a master list of River Song’s timeline. I think I’ve covered all the major points.
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Newlyweds Amy & Rory have bunk-bed sex in the TARDIS. (Not the way I’d want to kick off my marriage, but oh well.) Amy becomes pregnant, and the embryo inside her absorbs energy from the time vortex, causing it to have both human & Time Lord DNA.
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Amy & Rory return to modern day Earth and resume normal lives for about two months.
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Sometime during Amy & Rory’s hiatus from travelling in the TARDIS, Amy is snatched by Madame Kovarian and replaced with a Ganger. While “Ganger Amy” travels in time with the Doctor (and doesn’t show signs of being pregnant), the real Amy is kept imprisoned at Demons’ Run while her baby gestates. Every so often, Ganger Amy has a “time memory” vision of Kovarian observing the real Amy.
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The Doctor exposes Ganger Amy as an imposter and disintegrates her. At the same time, the real Amy gives birth to a daughter whom she names “Melody Pond.” Lady Kovarian works alongside the future Vatican and the Headless Monks to turn Amy’s baby into a weapon to use against the Doctor.
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Lorna Bucket, A human soldier who remembers seeing the Doctor in the Gamma Forest when she was a young girl, tries to befriend Amy. She gives her an inscribed cloth with Melody Pond’s name translated into the language of the Gamma Forest.
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The Doctor & Rory lead an assault on Demon’s Run. They rescue Amy, but Lady Kovarian escapes with baby Melody. At that point, the adult River Song appears and reveals to the Doctor, Amy & Rory that she is the adult Melody. (Among Lorna’s Gamma Forest people, “Melody” is translated as “Song” and since “the only water in the forest is the river” - “pond” is translated as “River.”)
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The Doctor leaves in pursuit of Melody, entrusting River to get Amy & Rory home. [Events of “Let’s Kill Hitler” may be inserted here]
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Earth, 1967 - 69 - A young girl (presumably, but not definitively established as a somewhat older Melody / River) is in the hands of the Silence and their human pawn in an abandoned orphanage in Florida. The Silence encase the girl in an Apollo-era NASA space-suit (souped up with a variety of alien/futuristic technology.)
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The girl uses the futuristic tech of the space-suit to contact the highest authority - President Richard Nixon - and beg him for help to fight off the spaceman that is going to “eat her.” The Doctor, Ganger Amy, Rory (all from a point in their timelines before #4), River & Canton investigate and discover the Silence’s tunnels and a proto-TARDIS (similar to the one the Doctor encountered in the Lodger.) Ganger Amy shoots at, but fails to kill the spacesuit-encased girl.
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Three months later, Ganger Amy & Canton investigate the orphanage. Ganger Amy finds the girls’ room, adorned with many pictures of her, including one of Amy holding a baby (again, presumably the real Amy holding an infant Melody / River.) She has a second confrontation with the girl in the astronaut suit, and is then abducted by the Silence for several days.
11.. The girl manages to escape from her space-suit and run away. Meanwhile, the Doctor & co. rescue Amy and engineer the Silence’s defeat.
12.. Six months later - the girl is on the streets of NYC. She regenerates like a Time Lord.
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At some point, River earns a doctorate in archeology.
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In as-yet unseen events, River as a young woman “meets” the Doctor, who impresses her by knowing everything there is to know about her. The precise nature of their relationship isn’t clear, but River learns his real name, is taught how to pilot the TARDIS (better than the Doctor does himself) and evidently the two have some kind of romantic / sexual relationship. River is also imprisoned in Stormcage for murdering “the best man she’s ever known” - but it isn’t clear if that is before or after her “first” meeting with the Doctor. Somewhere along the way, the Doctor & River encounter “Jim the Fish.”
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The Doctor liberates River from Stormcage to take her out for her birthday. When she returns to her cell, Rory is waiting - asking her assistance in freeing Amy from Demon’s Run. River refuses, already knowing the outcome of that adventure (She has a record in her journal about the bizarre circumstances of her birth.)
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River arrives at Demon’s Run (from her perspective) and reveals that she is Amy & Rory’s daughter.
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[Events of “Let’s Kill Hitler” will go here.]
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After receiving an invitation from the Doctor, River breaks out of Stormcage yet again to meet with him, (Ganger) Amy & Rory in Utah, early 21st century. She watches as the Doctor (from a point further along in his own personal history) allows himself to be murdered by an Impossible Astronaut.
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Immediately afterwards, the Doctor (from an earlier point in his timeline) shows up, and the quartet journeys to 1969. River as an adult encounters the Silence and displays her prowess by killing scores of them. When the Doctor drops her off at Stormcage, she realizes that (from the Doctor’s perspective) they have never been lovers - and so the romance between them from her past is now over. She is devastated.
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After a phone call from Winston Churchill (from 1945), River escapes Stormcage yet again. She procures a Time Vortex Manipulator, travels to New London to obtain a Van Gogh painting from Liz 10, travels back to the dawn of time to leave the Doctor a message, and finally meets up with the Doctor & Amy (and Plastic Rory) at Stonehenge in 102 AD. They investigate the Pandorica.
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While River is alone in the TARDIS, a mysterious entity (the Silence?) remote controls it to deposither at Amy’s house on her wedding day. Then it causes The TARDIS to explode, effectively destroying the universe aside from a small pocket containing the Earth. The Doctor “reboots” the universe, repairing cracks in time (in Rivers’ future) caused by the TARDIS explosion.
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River attends Amy & Rory’s wedding and helps Amy “remember” the Doctor back into reality. She then disappears - presumably to go back to Stormcage. [Side note: By her own perspective, this is effectively River’s final meeting with her father Rory.]
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River is offered a full pardon if she’ll assist the Anglican Marines in a mission concerning a Weeping Angel. She again leaves a coy message where she knows the Doctor will find it, thus luring him into fighting alongside the Weeping Angels in the 51st century. A crack in time (caused by the TARDIS exploding) swallows up the Angels. Since Octavian (who offered River the pardon in the first place) is erased from history, the offered pardon is negated, and she is forcibly returned to Stormcage. [Side note: By her own perspective, this is the last time River will ever see her mother Amy.]
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Ultimately, River’s sentence is ended, one way or another. She becomes a professor of archeology.
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In the 51st century, River visits the Library Planet. She sends out a summons to the Doctor to help her solve a mystery involving the Vashta Neruda. The Doctor who arrives is in his tenth incarnation. River meets Donna Noble. River is devastated to realize that the Doctor has never met her, and so no longer knows her. She whispers his real name in his ear, suggesting the depth of their future relationship. She also sacrifices her life for him, but he saves her consciousness in the library’s matrix.
But on second thought, this may only make your headache worse…
Two reasons:
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They never really resolved the immediate aftermath of Amy shooting at the kid (River?). It’s possible it’s just “they escaped.” But it felt like a bigger narrative leap than usual.
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Stephen Moffat’s helming. That means white space can’t be assumed to be white space.
I don’t feel “entitled” to see the three months or anything, I just think there’s a chance Moffat snuck something in there.
My personal guess about the main story is that there’s been encounters with the Silence all along – but, per the Silence’s whole deal, nobody is remembering them. One of the later episodes or the finale is going to reveal that there’s been a much more active war going on between The Doctor and The Silence than it appears.
I’m completely willing to be entirely wrong, though. My general approach to Who is that I could care less if it really makes sense as long as it kinda makes sense and is entertaining enough.
Other random postulate: remember when River realizes she’s had her “last kiss” with The Doctor? I think she’s wrong. She thinks the timelines are back-to-front, but I think that’s only partly true. Once the Doctor falls for her, he’ll go back to that point, whisk her off, and they’ll actually have some experiences in-sync with each other. This is when “Jim the Fish” happens.
I think the River Rory tries to recruit is older than the one who appears at the end and reveals that she’s Amy’s daughter. Possibly she happens to be the River in Stormcage on that day, but she doesn’t fit into the Doctor’s crunchy that way. That’s why she couldn’t come. From her perspective it’s already happened, even though she happens to be living that day again in Stormcage. (In other words the River who does show up had to travel to her future to do it.)