Where I come from, any single male up to the age of about forty is referred to as a “boy”. I know it might sound ridiculous to some of you but I think the usage of this word varies from place to place. Just wanted to point out that “cute boy” doesn’t sound particularly paedophilic to me.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned in the last year and a half living with a young child, it’s that kids will lie. My stepdaughter (6) will make up stories at the drop of a hat to get out of trouble. If she gets in trouble for taking her shoes off outside, she will say that her friends forced her to take her shoes off, even when we saw her kick them off as soon as she thought she was out of sight. That kind of stuff happens all the time, when we suspect she’s probably lying in situations like these we just keep asking more and more outlandish questions, which she will keep answering yes to - ‘Did your friend threaten you with a gun?’ ‘Yes’. What’s scary is she COULD be led to say almost anything in that fashion - one time her Mom was going out to run an errand and she wanted to go with her. My wife tells her she has to stay home, and that I’ll watch her. ‘I don’t want Badtz to watch me!’ ‘Why not, does he beat you?’ my wife asked sarcastically. She started nodding her head earnestly. My wife knew the kid was lying, but what if somebody else started asking her leading questions like that?
Adults who are physically and sexually abusive also have a gift for conning people. They con children mostly through intimidation, but they also know how to manipulate them. Likewise, they also know how to weasel when authorities investigate them. Conversely, people like (presumably) your uncle, who are without malice, don’t know how to answer questions in ways that can’t be taken wrong. “Honesty is the best policy” is a great theory, but simple honesty isn’t always a good defense.
I was once acquainted with a guy (I’d rather not say how) whose sexuality was one big mess. He, call him X, was alleged to have molested his sister, so I asked him point-blank if that was true. He told me that his father was the one who’d molested her, and that when she told someone, a teacher or somebody, the father had ordered them to collaborate on an alternative story. They were to agree that X was the one who had molested her, because “They’ll just send him to counseling. But if you say it was me, you’ll get sent to a foster home, and then the foster dad will have his way with you.” Years later, I was discussing X with my own therapist, and the therapist said X sounded like he’d also been molested. Probably.
BTW, when I said people who make false accusations-I meant people who do it on purpose, in order to get back at someone. I didn’t mean people who were genuinely mistaken.
[hijack]
I hope not. I can’t speak for all of Australia, but around my way, a ‘sheila’ is a rough, loud, slutty kind of woman. There are girls, and there are sheilas, but there are no sheilas who are also girls.
[/hijack]
This reminded me of a show I saw years ago (no idea now what it might have been called) that was largely about how easily children can be influenced, deliberately or not, to tell lies about abuse. In one of the most striking examples, parents sat down with their children (individually) and told them that the person who was coming in was going to tell them stories and to tell them things that weren’t true. They talked with the kids at length about what’s a lie, what’s pretending, what really happens versus what you might imagine, etc, and the kids all agreed that they understood and weren’t going to be fooled. Then the researcher would come in, sit with the child, and do just as Mom and Dad said, namely tell them silly and even impossible stories and subtly imply that they really happened. Without exception, every single child, when subsequently asked, recounted these stories as true events that they themselves had actually experienced - even though it had been carefully explained to them in advance that the person was going to try to fool them. I found the certainty of this pattern rather startling.
That said, I certainly don’t think kids are usually making up stories of abuse - I went through it for most of a decade myself and I sure as heck didn’t make it up (though I never told either, so I don’t know if I would have been accused of lying). I mention it only to affirm others’ remarks about how tricky and uncertain it can be, particularly once adults get involved and start questioning. Kids rarely lie about such things out of actual maliciousness, but they are shockingly easy to influence, even inadvertently. This is an impossibly complicated issue with no easy resolution or universal answer. Certainly any child who makes a claim has to be taken seriously, and the possibility investigated - how can you not? At the same time, for any adult merely to be investigated certainly leaves a permanent stain, no matter what the outcome. Doubly complicated since there is rarely overt physical proof of sexual abuse, versus pure physical violence that leaves visible bruises and wounds - most investigation has to be based simply on someone’s word. I don’t know the solution. Wish I did. In my non-professional observation and experience, far more kids never tell about sexual abuse that really did happen than lie about abuse that didn’t.
Moderator’s Notes: Sheee-it! I guess I’ve been shirking my duties. I can’t believe I’ve allowed this thread to populate MPSIMS for so long. Off to Great Debates wif it.
I think that’s the problem… children who have never been abused don’t know how serious it is, so to them, making up stories involving such things are no different than pretending that Santa Claus came down the chimney in the middle of the night. But children who have been abused are sadly aware of how serious it is, the adult in question usually warns them that they will get him/themselves into trouble if they tell, and the child is afraid of causing a fuss or of being blamed and so thinks it best to keep quiet.
That’s what causes the problem - children often won’t tell unless they are asked leading questions.
Sorry, Unc, I wasn’t trying to start a debate, just share something weird that happened.
I think these two issues are completely different. On the one hand, you’re talking about the acceptability of freedom of sexuality among families and small children. Your proclaimations here make good sense to me. And I agree about the ease with which children can be convinced of falsehoods by prodding therapists and others.
However, you’ve lumped in “slapping” with this behavior. I don’t see this as a right equal to that of two children exploring their own bodies. Striking another adult is against the law. A full grown man who slaps a 110 pound young woman full in the face can be charged with assault and battery. Are you suggesting the law should be different if the young woman is his child? If she’s 14? Or 7?
Consequently, such rebellious behavior probably took place in the case you’re talking about BECAUSE the child was corrected by physical punishment. I’m not suggesting that the parents are always at fault when a child does something wrong, but I do think that abuse is most often the CAUSE of the behavior problem, not the result of it. No person deserves to be slapped in the face or otherwise physically harmed. Ever.
As a child, I often went to school with bruises. I went to school after sleepless nights of suffering through violent arguments between my parents, puffy-eyed, half-awake, jumping at every noise. My sister and I both bore the marks of frequent slaps, “spankings,” shoves, hair-pulling, and grabbings, along with problems that come from being emotionally abused. My sister had an eating disorder by the time she was about 9 years old.
Not one doctor, teacher, neighbor, friend, or other family member ever came to our aid, even though the signs HAD to be clear. I would never have spoken a word about it to anyone, for fear of reprisals.
False accusations of molestation and allowing for children to be slapped or otherwise physically abused are two different topics entirely. I understand concern over repercussions and frequency of the former. I do NOT understand why anyone would suggest the latter could ever be acceptable.
-L
I believe that part of this stems from well meaning outsiders that don’t know the situation, especially if they have never had kids/been around little kids extensively themselves. As a pretty new parent, my eyes are being opened as to what constitutes normal behavior for kids and I’ve got a lot to learn.
Cazzle writes:
Seems to me, this will help mostly the offenders. The offenders are mainly ones who have learned to deal with society. In addition, the victims often only learn to feel natural around those that seem like their offenders, and will feel “inappropriate” around sensitive, shy, and therefore weird, individuals.
When I was around 12, I visited a family friend’s house for the holidays. One of their relative’s families was over, and had several daughters, who, whenever the husband would call to them, would respond with extremely leery and fearful eyes. I also heard that several months ago they had been in an auto accident and that the children, despite being bruised, were not taken in for medical attention. I told my mom about their apparent fearfulness, but she dismissed it as that they were tired.
I later, tried to strike up a conversation with one of the daughters but she ignored me as if I were also one of the monsters. She probably did not trust me because I looked “naturally” like someone you should not trust?
I found out later, that the children had been taken away from them due to abuse. Now, I have no proof of what type of abuse, but the auto accident was sure sign of neglect.
My only other firsthand experience with that is me working at a Burger King, and a man in line threatening to Kick his daughter’s Ass. (I wonder what he threatens at home?) By threatening violence, I believe I had witnessed an actual act of verbal abuse (and whether or not it was carried out, it was not told in a joking manner!)
After they had finished their meal, the daughter walked toward the door and stared up at the menu (to be as far from her father as possible?) I wish i would have gotten up the nerve to strike up a conversation, I want them to know that not everyone in the world is a monster. But I didnt, remembering my former experiences.
Did those two men Look like an Abuser? you bet they did, every inch of them. But in a more redneckish sort of way (not to imply that all those who think of themselves as “rednecks” are bad people), what Cazzle posts makes me think more along the lines of a greasy, leery-eyed old man with few teeth. I would venture a guess that FEWER of those “obvious” cases are actual offenders, for the simple reason that they do NOT have the social skills to evade capture once they have commited the first offense. The people with the better social skills successfully pull off more abuse.
I would put myself in the former category. I think a lot of people are just generally put off by me because I avoid people’s eyes and do not readily make personal connections. I would be the first to be suspected of any goings-on in the neighborhood, since I keep to myself. That I have not ever committed any sort of abuse will not matter once the thought police get ya…
One of my molestors had 3 neices and a daughter that were close in age to me. (He is the son of my then babysitter - I was 6, he was about 20 when it started). One day when I was about 8 or 9, when I had realized that what was going on wasn’t good - I was spending the night at his house (his daughter and I were good friends) and I stayed in the bathroom with her while she took a shower to make sure he didn’t go in there and mess with her. When he realized what I was doing (I hadn’t said anything to her or anyone else) he said to me: “I would never touch someone in my family. That’s disgusting.”
I’m not saying that your uncle is guilty. My point is that the way a person behaves with one child is not necessarily indicative of their behavior with all children.
Something bad happened to my family when I was three, and no one ever talked about it. I only have a handful of memories about it. Namely, being woken up by one of my uncles when my parents weren’t home, leaving our house in the middle of the night, and flashing lights, like in movies when people are taking pictures. When I found out what happened last year I worried what would have happened if someone had asked me about it when I was younger. I was a little kid that liked to please adults, and when I couldn’t answer them, I would have cried, perhaps becoming hyterical if they kept asking questions. They might have drawn horrendious conclusions about my parents, especially when they took into account the fact that my brother and I had some emotional problems in our early teens and my parents aren’t married (they live “in sin”) and that my mother doesn’t like my father very much (they stated together for the children). She might have gone along with whatever DSS thought. My parents never us, but I could see how someone could very easily think we had been molested.
On another note, if any of you are from New Eengland, I’m sure that you’ve all heard of the casewhere kids accused the day care providers of molesting them. Well three of the adults were convicted and have been appealing the case for the past 15 years. Dateline did a show about it awhile ago, and they showed some of the video of the interveiws. The kids accused everyone from their parents to the social workers handling the case. One of the three people that were jailed for this is dead, and another is still in jail, I think. Whether they’re guilty or not is very unclear, but it seems that they got convicted when the country was on a “Believe the child witch hunt.”