I love that Grima pic. I think I might make a new wallpaper out of that.
Check out those Uruk-Hai! Whoa!
Speaking of the upcoming movie, anyone know who is going to be playing Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth? Anyone know how Imrahil will play out in the movies? Is his role going to be expanded? Reduced? Will he be portrayed as having some Elvish blood?
I am dying to know, because I was always fascinated by The Prince of Dol Amroth and his Knights. Such a mysterious character and “princedom”, down there by the sea.
Speaking of Imrahil, what are your thoughts with regard to his Elvish blood?
So, are we to assume that the lines of Elvish Blood are mearly a legend, and not true?
Lastly, anyone know if there are any pics (or drawings/paintings) of the Princes’ Castle in Dol Amroth?
There’s also the “Dol Amroth” controversy – in which Tolkien is caught in the contradictory statements of the first Lord of Dol Amroth having been named in about TA 1944, while there are historical records of Princes of Dol Amroth in wars far before that date – not to mention the origin of the name in the Amroth/Nimrodel tragedy (and its connection to the history of Celeborn and Galadriel). Christopher Tolkien is reduced to playing Bible-interpreter of sorts in an effort to reconcile these divergent ideas.
As a member of the Noldorin royal house, Fingolfin, would you be so kind as to set the record straight on the origins of Dol Amroth and Galadriel’s progeny?
Umm, ever since I was crushed like a pancake by Morgoth’s giant hammer, well, I’ve had memory problems. I really can’t remember! I don’t even know if I am to assume that Imrahil’s lineage has Elvish blood for crying out loud! Care to help me out?
Y’know, I was thinking of asking about Dol Amroth’s lineage, myself. If nothing else, he probably does have a little Elvish blood in him, through the standard Numenorean lineage back to Elros. But there are a few references that make it explicit that there was no “extra” joining of the Two Children there… One of the appendices to LotR lists the joining of the peoples as three: Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen. Also, near the end of the Silmarillion, there’s a statement to the effect that only through the children of Earendil does the blood of the Elder Children still flow in the veins of Men.
And of course, we all knew that Eowyn is hot. Somehow, though, she looks a bit younger than I expected: I always pictured a few lines on her face. Let’s face it, the girl has been through a lot of stress.
Vague memory, probably mistaken… doesn’t Legolas bow to Imrahil, something like, “perceiving that here was one in whom flowed the blood of elven princes…” something like that? Wait… Ha! Found it! in my copy, page 176, beginning of ch. 9 (the Last Debate), At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. “Hail, lord!”, he said…"
Yay! I thought so! Great picture of Wormtongue, but I agree, I’s have thought Eowyn would have a sterner face… oh, well, as long as she can act…
Actually I was thinking just the opposite. Granted, one picture is not really enough to base a judgment, but this woman looks like she belongs in an episode of Ally McWhine, substituting for Portia Rossi (or whatever the name of the ugly skinny blonde is).
This is not one bit the way I picture a shieldmaiden of the mighty Rohirrim. Her baby soft face just screams out “weakness”, and even with that armour or thick tunic she still looks waifish and wimpy. In fact, horse and garment notwithstanding, all I can think of when I look at this picture is how the girl in it ought to be wandering in a mall or maybe talking make-up with her friends, certainly not lifting up a heavy mace and shield (that she could certainly not lift or use effectively with such a waifish physique) and riding to war.
That is a very cool picture, but I wonder if Grima’s appearance is not a little over the top?? He certainly is supposed to be evil and slimy, but does he have to look like a freaking vampire? Wouldn’t that create certain problems for him, since he is an infiltrator in Theoden’s court and not a dark vampire lord holding sway over his armies of undead?
I’m just getting more and more aggravated here. What the hell is the deal with the full-body plate armour for the goddamned uruk-hai?? This is a fighting force that is almost always on foot, that relies on its running endurance, yet they’re wearing what must amount to 100 Kg in iron each. This is the “Fantasy Armour Factor” taking over, which dictates that cool armour is more important than common sense or atmosphere and also saves on make-up costs. Cool armour is also important to communicate ennobling or threatening messages to the audience–a cheap and overused trick in my opinion, especially because it sacrifices texture. Dirty, ragged, broken and most importantly patchwork armour may not look so pretty, but it’s certainly more appropriate for the disorganized orc hordes and would communicate “orcishness” to the audience infinitely better.
I’m disappointed with these images, although of course I may end up being wrong. I liked the first film in spite of the several shortcuts and liberties taken. I admit I had a problem picturing Viggo Mortessen (spelling?) as Aragorn because here’s another person who is simply not “big” (imposing) enough to play this particular character, but he made it work well. I don’t see the little waif teenager Eowyn pulling off a similar trick, even with make-up and padding and camera-work.
I respect your opinions Abe, but I disagree with everything you said.
Miranda Otto will be great. She is stronger that you think. Just wait until you see her battle scene with the Nazgul.
Grima is not overdone IMHO. Simply brilliant.
I like the addition of plate mail in LotR. Although Tolkien never describes anything more sophisticated than chain mail in the books, adding plate mail to certain types of characters (ex. Uruk-Hai) makes them appear to be more of a threat to the audience. Plus, even tho Tolkien never actually stated it, the fact that chain mail, and other steel weaponry/armor, existed means that plate mail technology had to exist in Middle-Earth.
Qadgop, does “Calaquendi” refer to just the Elves of the Light, or their houses as well? Because nor Luthien nor Arwen, nor presumably Idril (are we ever told that she was born in Middle Earth?) ever saw the light of the Trees.
Why? Chain mail existed on Earth before plate mail was invented.
Plus, the point isn’t that plate mail can’t be made, it is that it isn’t practical. Much as plate became the armor of knights who rode Percherons or something similar to battle, because the horse could carry the weight and because the knight needed protection from lances doesn’t mean that a ground force would wear plate armor. You don’t see our modern infantry wearing tank armor, do you?
Strider, Legolas, and Gimli are hailed by Eomer as having accomplished something totally amazing for having travelled from the Emyn Muil to the hills near Fangorn in just three days, yet the orcs manage to outdistance them. The Three Companions aren’t wearing much armor (except for Gimli), and do you REALLY think the orcs could manage to run morning, noon and night with plate mail on their torsos??
As for Eowyn, I’ve always thought of her as about 5’ 8", tall for a woman but not as tall as most men of her race, slender, pretty much with the weight of the world on her shoulders until she finally softens under the importunings of Faramir. Of course, for a movie, it isn’t easy to make all your casting choices totally fit the mold; after all, let’s face it, you really can’t make humans look like elves, with the light of the trees shining in their faces and their beauty surpassing even the most beautiful human, but I wan’t too upset with Galadriel. On the whole, I’ll at least give the makers the benefit of the doubt.
And as I recall, Grima the Wormtongue was described as having some less than appealing features even in the first passages. And we don’t know what point in the movie the picture is taken from, so let’s reserve judgment.
I’ll withold my judgement of Miranda Otto/Eowyn until I see the movie, as I never really got a clear image of her in my head from the book. Grima does look like a vampire, but that may just be a trick of the light in a still capture. I think Brad Dourif will do a great job, though. I didn’t know that it was going to be him playing Wormtongue. He’s always been a favorite of mine, so weird and creepy. Remember him as Piter De Vries in Dune? He’ll be perfect as Grima.
Well, since Calaquendi is also used to signify “high elves”, then yes, I believe it applies to their houses. They not only saw the light before sun and moon, but “became enlightened” in wisdom and knowledge, which they then passed to their children. Or at least I recall CJRT commenting on such. Of course, with 12 volumes to search, I can’t find it very fast!
As I recall, it states (somewhere!) in the History of Middle Earth that Idril WAS in fact born in Aman (she was still a child during the crossing of the Helcarexe); both she and her mother Elwe fell through the Ice, but Turgon was able to save his daughter’s life. So I suppose she would therefore qualify as a genuine Calaquendi, since she would have seen the Trees. As to Luthien - perhaps having an Ainur for a mother had a similar effect to viewing the Trees?
My understanding has always been that, despite its looks, plate mail (the later invention) was a heckuva lot lighter and easier to manage than chain mail. Plate mail–thin sheets of steel–gets its strength from its curves and bends (just like a car chassis). But it was so expensive (and needed to be custom-fitted) that only the wealthy nobles ever bought it.
As for the orcs/Uruk-hai wearing so much plate (which looks more like iron than steel!)–let’s not forget that they ALWAYS wore extremely heavy iron shoes in Tolkien’s writings. So why not a little plate mail?
Plate armour was by far the heaviest and most protective (generally) of all armour. And they certainly didn’t have aluminum armour at any point in history, which would have allowed for comparatively lightweight plate. Here is what www.britannica.com has to say on the topic (note: these are short excerpts of much longer articles):
My emphasis. That all sounds pretty heavy, especially if you consider that the “maximum freedom of movement” allowed by full-body plate armour did not even permit a knight to climb on his own horse without help from assistants. Also consider: “As armour protection became more complete and heavier, larger breeds of horses appeared” (Britannica) – those Orcs are definitely in the kind of full-body iron plate armour so heavy that it stimulated the breeding of larger and stronger horses! And they’re supposed to fight on foot in that! Then:
Excessive being a relative term here of course.
And Fingolfin I understand you really like the material (I do too) and Peter Jackson is going to become your new religion (OK that’s where I draw the line), but Orcs, even the Uruk-hai, were not that strong. If they were anywhere near as powerful, given their vast numbers they would have overrun Middle Earth for Sauron in a matter of months–probably wouldn’t even have needed the assistance of Southern Men, which Sauron obviously felt was necessary since he made an alliance with many of them during the War of the Ring.
They did not wear iron shoes if I recall correctly, but iron-nailed shoes (to damage the land they march over and the enemies they trample). The plate armour argument is still not flying. I’m telling you, armour like that in a film is always a sign of cinematographic excess. We know the orcs didn’t wear plate armour, but it looks “cool” and threatening, so it was employed as a gimmick to communicate specific items to the audience rather than relying on the original.
I retract my comments on Grima (and yes, he was very good in Dune if that was him!) because frankly we don’t know much about the context of the picture. SPOILER READ NO FURTHER —> He rather does look like a vampire though, I hope that look is his evil-soaked self “revealed” by Gandalf as opposed to his normal look (he’d be a really bad spy if he looked like that all the time).
Well, I’ll be covered in fancy black plate armour! Say what I will about her, I cannot deny that she looks youthful. Regardless, she still has a soft, pudgy, baby face. As for being a waif, not all slender women are waifs, but she looks like one (in this picture, at least). Another slender, but more “womanly” as opposed to girlish actress would have fit in better, perhaps an Angelina jolie with her hair dyed blonde and minus the fake Tombraider breasts (just an example of a beautiful slender actress I can believe performing feats of strength).
Wha? Abe, so Knights can (and did) wear plate armor, but Uruk-Hai Orcs can’t because they are not strong enough?? Dude, you need to re-read Tolkien. The Uruk-Hai Orcs were definitely strong enough to wear plate armor. Why this is a hard concept for you to grasp is beyond me.