It appears my beloved New Orleans Saints had a bounty system in place to reward players for knocking opponents out of the game. Former DC Greg Williams ran the program, Head Coach Sean Payton and GM Mickey Loomis knew about it and failed to do anything to stop it, even though Owner Tom Benson told Loomis to stop the program.
I bleed Black & Gold. Been a fan of this team for 40 years, but I’m not defending this one. If I was the owner, Loomis would be fired immediately, and I might fire Payton too. Whatever sanctions the NFL hands down will be richly deserved.
I’ve noticed a few hits in the last several seasons that seemed particularly vicious, especially by Malcolm Jenkins. Guess we know what motivated him now.
Still love my team, but I am disgusted by this scandal. Heads should roll down Bourbon Street.
I have to say I have a whole new level of respect (and fear :eek:) of the NFL’s intelligence gathering abilities.
Most sports issues like this tend to be drawn out bumbling mess of rumors. finger pointing, leaks, false leads and retaliatory accusations.
I can’t claim to be the biggest football head in the world, but I follow the news pretty closely, and I never heard a whisper until the evidence was indisputable. I have a mental image of Goddell barging into a meeting Samuel L Jackson style, putting box after box of legal documentation the table and saying, “Their asses are mine now”.
Smiling Bandit, I live in New Orleans, (within the city limits, not the suburbs) and YES, I am shocked and disappointed. Saints fans want to believe that, yes, we can have good guys here. Not everyone who lives here is corrupt or generally a bastard. Sheesh, generalize much? I am with Oakminster on this. I am not with the apologists who are defending it and saying “all the teams do something like this.”
N’awlin’s corruption is somewhat legendary. Doesn’t have to be everyone doing it; enough people do. After I while, I draw the line at heartfelt expressions of shock, just as if I would roll my eyes at people who were surprised to find that Blagojevich was a cheat. Doesn’t mean you can’t be hurt, but please excuse me if I laugh at the claim of surprise.
However, upon re-reading Oakminister’s post a few times, I think I misunderstood him na owe him an apology. I don’t think he was surprised so much as saddened, and I’m sorry I confused myself on that point.
I was actually thinking of their last two governers, and another two within the last generation, plus countless other scandals. I’ve never seen any evidence that Obama would be so stupid as to trade political power for money.
Which has what to do with their football players? They’re not elected officials. It’s disgusting and disappointing behavior by the Saints (who I like), and there’s some evidence that defensive coordinator Gregg Williams was doing the same thing in Washington- which makes me wonder if it happened at the other teams he’s coached, including my Bills. Some people have said this kind of thing is widespread in the league, and it should be rooted out as much as possible. Football is competitive and violent, but this isn’t how I want to see it played, and I think that goes for a lot of fans.
Yes, it seems that the common thread here is Mr. Gregg Williams, so while the players can certainly be faulted for going along with it (presumably) knowing it was against league policy (did they?), the person to be held most accountable and punished is Gregg Williams, not the players and teams.
As an aside, how fucking stupid are the Redskins for admitting to this? I know it has not been officially acknowledged by the team, but anonymous players and even one named one, Phillip Daniels (former player and current “director of player development”) publicly confirmed that GW was paying them bounties to the tune of thousands of dollars a game.
I don’t regret any part of it. I can’t. Williams is the best coach I ever played for in my years in the NFL, a true teacher who developed me as a player. I believed in him. I still do. That will never change.
Wrong, Mr. Bowen. Williams cheated. He willfully and deliberately broke the rules, bringing dishonor on himself, his employers, and all those players that bought into his cheating. He should be fired immediately and put under something similar to the NCAA’s Show-cause penalty.
What do you think will happen? Their GM knew about it and did nothing at all. Williams is gone. They have their fall guy. The NFL will punish them with suspensions and loss of draft picks and fines. But what do you think the Saints will do to their own? I’d be very impressed if they fired Payton and Loomis, or if they suspend their own players, but I don’t see that happening.
I’d rethink my previous statement on the Saints (“Any respect I had, or good feelings for their post-Katrina wins, has now disappeared. Fuck Gregg Williams, fuck Sean Payton, and fuck the New Orleans Saints.”) if they did any kind of internal punishment. But until those heads roll down Bourbon Street, I’ll stick with fuck them.
The SI article says Benson told Loomis to stop it, and Loomis didn’t do as he was told. If I was Benson, Loomis would already be fired. I’m on the fence about Payton. He’s the most successful coach the Saints have ever had…but he knew about it and failed to act. He deserves to be punished, and if that punishment is getting fired, I’d support the decision. So far, I have not heard anything about specific players–though I strongly suspect Malcolm Jenkins was involved.
I did read somewhere that the IRS may be interested, assuming the bounty money was not reported as income…
Oakminster, I’m sorry to hear this news about your team; I have a good friend who is also a lifelong Saints fan, and have no doubt he feels the same way you do.
I admire your stand-up attitude regarding this issue, too.
Are people mad about the money part or the targeting players for injury part? Because if it’s the former, I think the money itself was hardly an incentive to guys making thousands of times that a year.
As far as the targeting people for injury, I am not sure there is much you can do to stop that sort of thing besides punishing dirty hits. Football is basically a blood sport. Nearly every year, someone dies playing football. Others are permanently crippled or disabled. Injuries are a large part of the game, and the allure. The NFL makes their money on violence and thuggery, so it’s kinda hard for them to act surprised when things like this arise. That’s not to say that these people shouldn’t be punished, but let’s not act like they were actual Saints before this story broke. These guys hurt people for a living. Whether it’s intentional or incidental is less of an issue when the circumstances make those eventualities inevitable regardless of intent.
Did Williams coached defenses produce any more injuries, dirty hits, or knock outs than other similarly ranked defenses not incentivized by bounties?
No, I don’t really care about paying a guy an extra $1,000 for forcing a fumble. That’s really more about pride and encouragement than the dough itself. Paying guys for injuring other players and pushing them to try to hurt other players is beyond the pale, though.
The New York Times is reporting confirmation that the Bills had a similar program when Williams was their head coach, and other players are saying this stuff is widespread. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard talk about this sort of stuff but I think it’s the first time we’ve had real confirmation.
The only real significance of the money, here, is that it’s an indication that the management meant it seriously when they told the players to hurt the other guys. Without the money, it could be brushed off as “Oh, I just meant that metaphorically”. With the money, that plausible deniability is gone.
I may actually take back my “Fuck the New Orleans Saints” viewpoint if Benson has the sack to fire Loomis. After the whole Loomis/Payton vicodin thing didn’t result in a firing, I have little to no faith that this will. Maybe the PR on this will prompt Benson to fire him, but until that happens, fuck the Saints.
Maybe the Vicodin was clouding his decisionmaking.
Vilma was also inplicated in offering $10,000 bounty on Brett Favre. All told there were 22 to 27 Saints players involved. Like I said, Fuck the Saints.
The article says there was never an explicit suggestion that they should be dirty, or “take guys out” with cheapshots. To quote the article:
Again, this bounty just makes explicit what is happening already. You don’t think come contract time, a player’s agent will bring up all the times he knocked out the other team’s players, and all the good hard hits he made? There is already a financial reward for doing what these guys are doing. You don’t think hits like this earned LT more money? Paying them a paltry sum, and having a bounty, is more about motivation than anything else.
Again, it’s pretty easy to forget that these guy hurt people for a living. Even when they aren’t sociopaths like Bill Romanowski and James Harrison, they are still out there to slam their bodies in to another person in order to tackle them to the ground. This is a violent game. Trying to sanitize a bloodsport is not very effective.
I would happily retract my statement if it comes out that Williams’ teams had more dirty hits or injured more players than teams without bounties, but I would guess they are not significantly more reckless.
