In reality though the thinking is that most of the world can just fuck off with their opinions.
My country right or wrong and all that…
Yes. I understand that (and I understand it is not your opinion). In which case the same reply holds to those who think the rest of the world should stop bringing it up or getting upset about it.
Question: Do you think that Bush and/or Cheney have ever actually looked at these photos? If so, what do you think their reaction was? (I’m guessing something along the line of “shit happens”).
So, what would you classify a naked man being pinned against a wall by two guard dogs, a guard holding a hooded prisoner in a choke hold while apparently preparing to punch him in the back, two naked prisoners handcuffed together and writing the word rapist on a prisoner and making him lie naked on the floor as?
Feel free to field this one Bricker, if you want.
Masturbation and giggling would be my guess; they probably have a library of this stuff.
Do you think they masturbate while watching the video of four naked Iraqi men being forced to masturbate in front of a video camera while standing beside each other. This is another one of the videos that was shown on the Aussie Dateline show.
Wouldn’t surprise me in the least. They probably invited Jeff Gannon over for the video parties, too.
Hmm . . As someone who has visited a few detainee facilities in Iraq, I believe some of these pictures may constitute some unethical practices. However, none of these are particularly proof of “torture.” I have seen detainees come into coalition custody beat to shit by Iraqi police and Iraqi army. I have some well documented cases of this abuse by Iraqis. We constantly train both coalition forces and Iraqi forces on proper treatment of detainees. It is one of my duties to inspect detainee facilities to ensure the rights of the detainees. I have seen absolutely no evidence of any abuse or maltreatment. I do think that it is just a few bad apples that lead to the rest of us looking as if we have committed abuses. .This isn’t a rant so I will not go on plus I can not divulge too much information.
How then do you explain Camp Mercury?
I am not trying to explain anything. Let sum it up here. We have allegations of abuse from two military bases in Iraq and a possible third. We have allegations of abuse from two units, those guarding A-G and the 82nd in FOB Mercury. Why should this tarnish the rest of the military bases (at least 16 more in Iraq) and units that have detainee facilities. Every FOB (Forward Operating Base) has some sort of a detention facility and people guarding it. Have there been allegations from all these? No there have not
I would like to go ahead and state for the record that I am by no means proud of what the few people have done and in no way do I support the abuse of anyone let alone a detainee. It is part of my job to inspect these facilities and ensure that no one is being abused in my sector. I do however take it personal when the military’s image gets tarnished for such things.
And Bagram Base, and Kandahar Base, and numerous confirmed criminal homicides that did not occur at AG or Mercury. Moreoever, the events at Mercury present a picture, not of a ‘few bad apples’, but of sanctioned policies that went up the chain of command. Likewise there was a campaign on the part of military physicians to cover up torture which was occurring at AG. There’s also the case of an interrogator who placed his prisoner’s head into a plastic bag and didn’t allow him to breathe, causing his death. The interrogator was never charged with anything. Etc… cites can certainly be provided upon request.
While it isn’t accurate to condemn the entire military, nor is it accurate to call it ‘a few bad apples’.
Not torture.
Not torture.
I don’t agree with this characterization.
Not torture.
Not torture.
It’s clear to me there WAS torture. What you have described is not torture, and it demeans the word to apply it to those practices.
This post is not in any way an indication that I approve of those practices. It’s simply a note that the word “torture” is not the correct one to apply.
Excellent! We have cleared up the semantic confusion around the word “torture”! How very splendid. If only we could put this argument forward to those who have gone from mild disapproval to blazing hatred, surely they would amend their ill opinion of us accordingly. I am not optimistic.
Note to Dryfreeze: you place us in an awkward situation: you submit personal knowledge and authority while asserting that you cannot be more forthcoming for reasons readily understandable. I have no beef with that, but hasten to point out that the situation does not permit us to “take your word for it”. I should very much like to accept the comfort of believing that only a “few bad apples” were involved, that there is no sytemic problem to be addressed.
But you weaken your stance with the suggestion that since no abuses have been reported elsewhere, no such abuses have occured. Before the abuses at AG were reported, I would not have believed such things had occured. To steal a line, a wish I didn’t know now what I didnt know then. But such is the case, is it not? I am entirely willing to accept your assertion that such as these would not occur “on your watch”. But they occured on somebody’s watch, now didn’t they?
Please be assured that I also “take it personally”. These are my people, wearing my uniform, acting (ostensibly) on my behalf. I have never worn a uniform in my life, and there is scant likelihood that I will. But I take it personally. He who stains my nations honor stains me. And it is not the man who points out the stain who is guilty but he who made the stain.
Now, if we could only get somebody who did not believe there was torture based on earlier evidence, who may or may not agree now that there is torture with this new evidence, we could start to have a debate.
And it won’t do any good to bring in someone who was OK with torture - we need somebody who denied it was torture up until these latest photos.
Its not two monkeys doing backflips either. Telling me what its not does not answer the question, “What would you classify [these acts] as?”
What portion do you disagree with? Do you disagree that he has the prisoner in a choke hold? Do you disagree that he has his fist cocked back in a punching position?
Inasmuch as Wierddave has not posted to this thread, references to him (particularly in a disparaging manner) are inappropriate in this Forum.
[ /Moderating ]
Strangely enough I find myself agreeing with Brickerin the case of those four examples. Those aren’t torture.
Now, because they are still pictures, on their own they naturally don’t tell a complete picture. However, given what we’ve already been told about what went on at Abu Ghaib I think we can be fairly safe in making the assumption that, given the context, they are photographs of prisoner abuse.
wait a second, WHICH events are we talking about?
well, maybe we’ve strayed in this debate. i think what we need to do is to re-evaluate this and redefint “torture”. dictionary dot com does it thusly:
tor·ture Audio pronunciation of “torture” ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.
-
- Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
- An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
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Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
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Something causing severe pain or anguish.
tr.v. tor·tured, tor·tur·ing, tor·tures -
To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
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To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
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To twist or turn abnormally; distort: torture a rule to make it fit a case.
now saying that you green light torture in the holding of (any) prisioners is wrong to do. this holds up especially so when we are showing people how democratic we are and how fair we are. the point to make about being still pictures is also an important one. we don’t knoe exactly what context these pictures could be taken in. on one hand, they could be for daily beatings and humiliation, on the other hand, the detainees could have just been caught trying to escape, hit a captor, etc. (obviously in some of the pictures, this is a lot harder to get than the other side).
the point is that if this truely were “just a few bad apples”, and the world knew this, it’d have been written off, and we’d treat it like it were a few bad apples. i’ve said in another thread…and it might have even been this one…that what we should have done is publically denounced the “torturers” and punished them to the fullest extent of our law, or, even better, offered them up to some international law to make amends. the fact that we’ve done nothing/condoned it doesn’t (necessarily) make it a few bad apples scenario. if anything, it’s a systematic failure, and paul from saudi would be closer to right in his statements.