Two gay friends have made this argument to me when the subject of gay marriage came up (both years ago).
One has since changed his mind and the other is so pissed that he’s still single that even straight marriage gets him upset.
Catering to? Well, did you see Howard Dean hugging a guy in assless chaps before he signed Vermont’s civil unions bill? I’m not saying that gay people should hide who they are. But when it comes to legislation, you have to have a degree of credibility.
That are continued in parades.
They are in many many parts of the country. You really think so? Eastern Iowa, Georgia, Texas…? Where do you think the “fear” of the “gay agenda” comes from? It’s misconceptions and stereotypes that most certainly get reinforced there.
Maybe you’re right. I could be holding a decade-old grudge against it.
It’s hard for me to be proud of things that come naturally. I’m proud of whatever I’ve withstood, but if I were going to have a parade about it, I’m not sure I’d pull out every negative stereotype.
I’m not surprised at the polls at all. When I was in high school, we figured it would come to be.
What is gay culture, anyway?
Interesting image. I’m not sure what it has to do with the topic, but what the hell. You’re the first person I know of who has put assless chaps on a strawman.
And yet the trends are moving solidly in favor of gay rights and gay marriage. Maybe if nobody ever acted like a stereotype again, gay marriage would get legalized a week sooner. What’s the point?
I think the stereotypes would persist for years after the behavior stopped. If nobody ever waved his freak flag at a gay pride parade again - starting today - gay marriage would still be legal in about half the country before homophobes stopped using those images to make gays seem sinful and scary.
Quote:
CitizenPained: When had a, er, person, in high school & college, I rather resented being put into a group - a group that was basically ‘anything not straight’ just because I wasn’t dating a male. Sorry. I guess I’m more of the HRC and Banana Republic type.
Miller: I don’t have a clue what this is supposed to mean.
It’s a difficult passage, what I got out of it was something like this: (my approximate understanding of the above): ‘I was dating another young woman in high school and college, but was otherwise like everyone else, and didn’t like being thought of as being/grouping myself with the extreme type(s) from pride - and felt like I was pressured to’
it’s a similar feeling to how anyone feels when stereotypes of their identity don’t match their actual identity. when their natural tendency is to be more like the stereotype of the ‘opposite’ of their identity, which is the privileged group, and that makes their own group reject them for trying to ‘pass’ when it’s just their nature.
It’s only a tipping point when it’s the legal national consensus. Just under 70 per cent of Americans are pro-choice, but hey, tell that to South Dakota.
Several times? Do we have a different number system?
You don’t read me? If the gay pride movement was part of a hey, fuck you, here we are consensus, then how does reinforcing bad stereotypes about gays now do anything for people who spend their entire careers working on behalf of gay rights?
Trust me, you go to Akney, Iowa, and ask what they think of gay people. Maybe a “That gay actor ain’t so bad, but that shit is just perverted. Have you seen them on the tv?”
I’m not asking anyone to pander. All I did was say that pride parades reinforce stereotypes. Big fucking deal. Do you disagree with it?
And a lot of people wouldn’t be caught any where near this.
I have been to a few of those and I didn’t have to worry about nipple rings and dildo lollipops.
So are you telling me that the majority of gay men carry closet perversions?
Thweetie, you can have big hair and great clothes, a love for drama and a lisp for all I care. You can tap on Broadway, be a fashion designer, or whatever niche exists for the stereotyped gay man.
But maybe you shouldn’t knock the gay lawyer, the gay teacher, the gay guy who likes to wear polo shirts, the so-called lipstick lesbian, the gay men in the military…? The gay rabbi or my gay Congressman? My gay friend who is a teacher at my son’s school - the one that won’t come out of the closet because her family links lesbians with perversion?
Gay Pride parades in some places are sex, sex, sex and always the stereotyped kind.
I don’t know how many guys have dreamed up a porn scenario in their heads when Rebecca and I were dating. :rolleyes:
I’m prudish and I prefer to err on the side of caution. If I go to the Denver Pride fest this year, I know I won’t have to shield my eyes. Or my son’s.
I’m a Democrat, but there are certain fringe groups I’d never been seen with. I don’t look at DKos for my daily news digest.
I’m pro-Israel, but I constantly criticize Likud and Israel’s domestic policies.
Sorry you are uncomfortable with people who aren’t like you.
Look. I’m just saying that impressions of over the top San Francisco parades is what I had to deal with when I was lobbying the Iowa legislature. Gays have been branded with ‘sexual immorality’ because of stereotypes surrounding a gay culture filled with AIDs, fetishes, perverts, and whatever else people come up with.
:rolleyes:
My gay friends didn’t pressure me at all, but I would go to a Pride event and think, wtf? This is what people are going to think I am all about?
I didn’t say girlfriend because I am tired of being called confused (which I’m not) or not gay enough (which I am also not) and figured it was about to come up in the thread.
Some stereotypes exist for a reason.
I mean, what’s the stereotype of black men Memphis? Detroit? Or Chicanos in L.A.? Or the barios in East L.A.? What does that do for the Chicano across the bridge?
WASPS? Republicans?
“Chicago” politics and Barack Obama?
What people say matters. It influences what others think. I spent my early adult years being really involved in local politics. I got to understand spin pretty quickly, and it was often the gays are sexual deviants, welfare moms are lazy methheads, illegals take all our jobs etc. that I had to combat.
Marley, gay unions may be legal in half the country (I don’t keep a state by state tab) but there are a few states where it’s a vote or two away from taking it to the public for a Constitutional amendment.
Fight.
Not.
Over.
Like Iowa, it took a few judges to make way for civil rights. It does not mean that gays are in the clear. Support for same-sex marriage in IA is below 50 per cent.
You can use as many Comic Book Guy sentences as you like- it won’t add up to an argument. I did not say the fight was over. I said the trend is not going to be reversed. I don’t know what you think you are educating me about at this point. You’re stating the obvious here, and I’m not sure why you think anyone needs to cater to your concerns.
Since I’m stating the obvious, Marley, why am I being attacked for it? Clearly it’s baseless.
It’s bad I had to Google “Comic Book Guy sentences”, right? Is :rolleyes: your Comic Book Guy smiley?
You’re not being attacked for stating the obvious. You’re being “attacked” for making some unsupported assertions about gay pride parades that don’t have anything to do with the issue under discussion - and which appear to be false. The gay rights movement has come a long way in a couple of decades, so like Miller said, if stereotypes about parades are holding them back, it can’t be very much. And I have no idea what your high school experience has to do with this, but what the heck.
No, but you should realize it’s a rhetorical style that will get you laughed at.
Okay, if you think that obnoxious gay pride parades don’t perpetuate the very stereotype about gays and sex, whatever. If you think they do and no one pays attention, you are wrong.
I think those who pay attention to stereotypes had the images you’ve been linking in this thread seared into their brains years ago and it doesn’t matter to them what goes on at gay pride parades today or tomorrow or how gays present themselves in the future. There are people that can’t be touched by reality, oh well.
I think the stereotypes about gays existed before pride parades, and if the parades ended today, they would exist after them. The parades are not the problem, and I don’t think they have any significant effect on anybody. If you do think that, you’re welcome to try to cite it.
Why do you support offshoring?
What?
What?
Jesus Christ, what in the blue bloody fuck are you even talking about?
And I suggest you see the actual legal system for the problems with that. We have the concept of precedent because novel problems come up all the time, disputes over things that no one saw coming: the internet has lead to all sorts of twists as new situations evolved. Why would a couple who married in 1975 have put in clauses about a shared Ebay identity?
When new situations come up (and there is no way to anticipate every situation in advance, and even attempting to do so would lead to thousands of dollars in legal fees and hundreds of pages of documentation) we have a nice legal shortcut that allows us to apply the “family” rules to people that didn’t start out as family, and allows us to dissolve that family status when we want to.
I’m fine with calling that “family status” a “civil union” if we call it that for everyone, gay or straight, and leaving the word “marriage” for individuals to define. But we need some sort of legal shorthand to classify people: it’s simply not feasible to think we could have individual contracts for every aspect of that condition.
I’d like to address an important point that no one else had brought up, and which has been floated, erroneously, I might add, several times in this thread. Towit:
*All *chaps are assless chaps.
Paraphilia definitions
And now Hypersexual disorder (revised) may make it into DSMV:
(wtf? well that will give homophobes some ammo)
Exhibitionism:
Homosexuality as a disorder wasn’t fully wiped from DSM until the 80s. Some pride parades are just feeding the beast. I don’t need a cite for the fact that “Perpetuating a stereotype reinforces a stereotype.” I know it’s a mock of stereotypes, but I think there’s a real backlash. The parody is lost. People have fears about gays. And let’s face it - the stereotype confirms what they think they know.
AND?
And next time you hear someone talking about sex-crazed mentally ill deviants, don’t knock them for their ignorance.