Don’t forget, she didn’t let me know about her situation until we were already well past Second Base. I had a bit of an emotional investment in her by this point. To be honest, if she had let me know from the outset, I probably wouldn’t have dated her. It seems her decision not to let me know up front worked in her favor, in this case.
Interesting point. I value honesty a lot, and I’m not sure, again, how I would’ve responded. Recognizing that het transsexuals are in a difficult position when dating, vaguely akin to the herpes-positive folks (vaguely, I say, vaguely!), I guess I can see how a little bit of reticence would be the best strategy.
At the same time, a significant part of dating is figuring out whether the other person is one you’d want to get romantically/sexually involved with; it seems a little unfair to hold back such a potentially significant bit of information from your date until such an emotionally-charged moment.
And then again, maybe it’s not: given that a person’s sexual identity is pretty tied up in their hormones anyway, maybe it’s fair play to give them the information when their hormones will, uh, lubricate their decision.
Sounds like a question for the Ethicist.
Daniel
I believe the phrase “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” applies here.
Um … that link says is was on Jenny Jones, not Jerry Springer. (And that the distraught man killed the gay guy who was interested in him, not himself. Did a similar scenario play itself out on the Jerry Springer show, or did somebody just give me the story wrong when I heard it?)
My apologies. Had my Cathode reversed. 
I love this analogy.
This explains why I’ve felt so burnt out today.
However, that big General Motors logo on the inside of her front door is another matter.
I see what you mean. Like I said, I value honesty in a relationship, but I hadn’t really thought about this issue very strongly before; tracer’s story and your experiences have given me food for thought.
Daniel
recognizing that for him it’s an academic exercise and not a fundamental life dilemma, so he doesn’t really get much of a say in it anyway
A forced policy of immediate disclosure, as The Unnamed One wanted to force on us before he was banned, effectively prevents straight MTF transsexuals from dating at all (unless, of course, they want to turn dating into a form of Russian roulette).
The belief that having sex with (or being attracted to) a post-op MTF makes you gay is the direct combination of raving ignorance regarding transsexuals and internalized homophobia. I’m not willing to bend the rules in favor of people who maintain such beliefs. Transsexuals shouldn’t have to put up with it, and I refuse to hold any transsexual (pre or post op) who defers disclosure until “third base” culpable in any way until such time as open disclosure at an earlier time doesn’t risk a potentially deadly reaction.
Nor am I responsible if someone finds me attractive when his stuck-up notions of gender mandate that he’s not allowed to be attracted to me. That’s not my problem. Why should I be denied the opportunity to search for a life companion, just to protect some other guy’s ill-formed notions of who he would like to consider himself attracted to?
Unless you want to go to one of those message boards for people who are only attracted to transsexuals, which I find just as creepy.
I dated a boy who was actually a girl. I found out while making out at the movies. We dated for a while afterward, but eventually we broke up. I don’t even know why…probably because I was so young (15 or so). The dishonesty was a bit of a drag, but understandable. He was a few years older than me. We hung in the same group for quite a while, and then he disappeared. I never did hear about him after that.
suppressed snicker at the obvious pun
I didn’t even realize I did it. Heh. Sometimes I crack myself up!
Ew. I’ve run into a few of those perverts. It is an experience I should not care to repeat.
I don’t understand what makes transsexuals so attractive to some guy. Is it the fact that there’s no risk of getting us pregnant? Is it the fact that we tend to be vulnerable and therefore easier to manipulate? Or is it the illicit thrill of having secret mansex without any of your friends really knowing?
There are times that I’m just infinitely happy that I’m a lesbian.
I guess I disagree with a lot of this. While I absolutely respect how any person defines their gender in almost all circumstances, sex and courtship is one area in which their definition doesn’t reign supreme. Both partners in courtship are likely to have idiosyncratic ideas about gender and sex, and if these idiosyncratic ideas don’t mesh, then the courtship is unlikely to be fruitful.
Just as it’s not internalized homophobia for a man not to be attracted to other men, it’s not internalized homophobia for a man not to be attracted to a MTF transsexual. There ARE no morals in who you’re attracted to, or how you set the limits on who you’re attracted to. It’s not racism to be attracted only to Jewish people; it’s not even racism to break off a relationship if you find out your partner isn’t really Jewish, despite their excellent Hebrew and their David’s Star pendant. People get to make whatever decisions they want about potential bedmates.
In other words, there ARE no rules that require bending when dealing with courting behavior, except POSSIBLY the need for both honesty and compassion.
Where it becomes unethical is if these idiosyncratic ideas extend beyond the courting.
Daniel
If you weren’t attracted to the individual, then you wouldn’t be at third base, now, would you?
This isn’t a case about being attracted or not attracted to transsexuals. People who find themselves in this situation clearly are attracted to transsexuals (or they wouldn’t be contemplating sex with them). They’re just mentally uncomfortable with that fact. And that mental discomfort is the result of internalized homophobia.
If you just weren’t attracted to transsexuals, then you’d go “Gee, she’s good looking. Why am I not attracted to her?” That’s not what happens.
Hmm. Maybe I mean something different from “homophobia” from what you mean. Like I said, people are allowed to make whatever weird and kinky and irrational decisions they want when it comes to romantic partners, for whatever reason they want. If they’re mentally uncomfortable with the fact that they’re attracted to transsexuals, that’s their business, and it’s legitimate for them to use that, along with any other criteria they want, to choose whom to be involved with.
Being an asshole about it, of course, wouldn’t be legit.
Daniel
But that’s not what you’re defending. You seem to be defending the position that because some people have such hangups, all transsexuals should disclose their status early so as to protect people who have such hangups. And I don’t think that’s defensible.
If you have hangups about who you’re willing to allow yourself be attracted to, it’s your responsibility to ensure that the targets of your lust don’t conflict with those hangups. It’s not the responsibility of whomever you lust after. Expecting them to know what your hangups are in advance is “being an asshole about it”.
You tried a while back to compare the obligation of disclosure for a transsexual with that borne by those who are herpes-positive. That’s actually a pretty insulting comparison. Warning your potential sexual partners that you have herpes is obligated upon you because not warning them endangers their health. There’s no disease that you can catch from having sex with a transsexual.
In any case, the constructed deception of the program discussed in the OP is beyond the pale. It’s one thing to date people because you want companionship; quite another to do so because you enjoy shocking them.