New Sport: Shooting Naked Women with Paintballs

It must be so. For the burden to rest otherwise would demand that your opponent prove a negative, which is basically impossible. **

Lip service? Here are the corporate officers of Playboy Enterprises, Inc.. The CEO is a woman (granted, his daughter Christie), as are six of the thirteen other officers. And they aren’t token positions: in addition to the CEO slot, the CFO and CTO are also both women. These are the people managing Hef’s business. His fortunes rest on their decisions. How on earth can you say he’s merely paying lip service to sexual equality? **

Spare me. I know too many guys who work for or with women and respect them, but still enjoy a trip to the nudie bar.

The guys you know - as well as Hefner - are all hot air The six women Hefner employs on his board of directors are far outweighed by the number of women his company has paid over the last 50 years to expose themselves for public consumption, reinforcing the idea that womens’ bodies and sexuality are the only real assets of value they possess. And guys who say they respect women but go to strip joints are like people who say “I like Blacks, but I wouldn’t want my daughter to marry one”. They’re fine with something as long as it doesn’t actually require them to re-examine their attitudes on the subject.

Oh, and way to weasel out on holding yourself up to the same standards up to which you hold others. “Proving a negative” indeed. snort

That is absurd. Hefner is definitely not full of “hot air” on this issue – he puts his money where his mouth is. If Hefner did not seriously believe that women were as intelligent and capable as men, he would not allow them to hold positions of great responsibility in his company. **

This, too, is an absurdity. Let me get this straight: if, in the day-in, day-out interaction with women in the business world, in subordinate, co-equal, and superior positions as the case may be, a man values the contributions of his female colleagues, seeks their input on important decision, and respects their judgment on key business matters – all of that is outweighed if that same fella makes the occasional trip to JuggyWorld? Give me a break. :rolleyes: **

And it’s an absurdity trifecta!

That’s not a weasel, it’s the way debate works. You claim X, without proof. Why should I just accept X? Why should the burden of proving not-X rest on me? It’s your proposition. You should be the one to prove it.

And proving a negative is nigh-impossible. Suppose you say “some people can fly without assistance.” This would be very easy for you to prove if true: simply name one of these flying people and arrange a demonstration. On the other hand, it is nigh-impossible for me to prove your statement is not true – that would be asking me to prove no person can fly without assistance, which would essentially require me to find every single person in the world and fling them off a cliff. Only after every single person in the world has fallen to their deaths – including you and me – can it be said your statement has been proved false. It is much more sensible therefore for the burden of proof to rest on your shoulders.

FYI, Hef is in the background. Playboy has been run by his daughter, Christie, for many years.

This statement is completely ridiculous.

How does paying women to expose themselves reinforce the “idea that womens’ bodies and sexuality are the only real assets of value they possess?”

Physical beauty is just ONE of many factors that make up a person.

As much as it might disappoint you, Olentzero, it is a very important factor. So important that people are willing to pay to see other people that they find to be good looking.

My girlfriend is beautiful. If she was in Playboy I would buy it. That doesn’t mean that I think she has no other qualities to offer society.

What are the assets of a woman who has a book published? Surely it is not just her intelligence and writing ability.

What are the assets of a female janitor? Its not just her ability to clean toilets and through out trash.

It seems to me that you are the one with the assumption that Playboy models have nothing other than sex to offer. Just because they are good looking and can make money off of their looks does not mean that they have no other social value.

Get over it!

That should be “throw” out trash. ooops

Yeah, I noted that specifically in the post above where I linked to PEI’s senior corporate management.

Hef’s in the background of the enterprise as a whole, but as I understand it he still gives final approval for every photo and word in the magazine, and I’m pretty sure that no one would cross him on a corporate decision if he elected to interject himself into that decisionmaking process. It’s still his baby, regardless of what the org charts say.

And therefore what, John and Dewey? Because Christie Hefner now runs Playboy, the exploitation of women as women has suddenly ceased? Playboy no longer sends a message that women need to look good with their clothes off, in fact ought to like taking their clothes off for a wider audience, in order to have valued as a person? Additionally, would you, Dewey, assert that every last reader of Playboy feels the exact same way about women as you claim Hefner does?

And yes, visiting a strip joint does outweigh the respect a man may or may not accord his female co-workers and superiors. If workplaces were entirely free of sexual harassment, your point might be valid. But such is not the case, and I would be very surprised to find that there is no connection whatsoever between sexual harassment at work and frequenting strip clubs. The cold fact is, sexist ideas still hold ground in today’s world, and the sex industry - strip clubs, magazines like Playboy, and videos like “Hunting for Bambi” - are both products and reinforcements of those ideas. Some women may be individually successful, but on the whole women are still very much second-class citizens in society.

Really? Where did I say that?

I agree with you. But that’s not Playboy’s message. That is my argument, not what you believe I said.

This is what I was talking about. Why are you equating Playboy with a woman’s value as a person? Playboy demonstrates a woman’s value to take her clothes off for money. That is it. Some of the models might be smart, some of them might be stupid, some of them might go on to become astronauts, some of them might go on to become ditch diggers.

Playboy does not send the message that “women need to look good with their clothes off, in fact ought to like taking their clothes off for a wider audience, in order to have value as a person.” What Playboy does do is take one valuable asset of the models (i.e. their good looks) and give them a way to use that asset to make money.

Looks are a part of a person. One part. Not all smart people are ugly, and not all ugly people are smart.

How does Playboy send the message that women need to look good with their clothes off, in fact ought to like taking their clothes off for a wider audience, in order to have value as a person?

As I said before, a woman who is paid to write an essay has more to offer society than just her intelligence, or her writing skills. Maybe she could pose for Playboy too. :slight_smile:

How do you know that is Playboys message? Could it be because you think that is what the message is?

Why do you think that is Playboys message?

Why do you think that guys who look at Playboy think women have no value?

All I am saying is that since Playboy has no explicit message saying “Our goal is to devalue women”, you are left to interpret the magazine how you see fit. I see it as a way for a good looking woman to make money, not to be judged on their value to society. You seem to think that posing nude somehow devalues a person. To me it is an opportunity, to you it is a tragedy.

Why is posing for Playboy any different than posing nude for an art class? You wouldn’t assume that a nude model for an art class has no other value to society, so why do you think that Playboys readers assume that of the models in the magazine?

Therefore your assertion that Hef is paying “lip service” to notions of sexual equality is demonstrably false. If Hef thought women were inferior to men, he would not place them in important positions carrying great responsibility. **

I wouldn’t assert that “every last reader” of Good Housekeeping or Ms. feels any particular way about women’s rights. Why would I answer any differently for Playboy?

OK, I’ll try my best to be coherent here, because I’m a bit under the weather, so please bear with me:

  1. I cannot believe this thread is still banging around!

  2. There is a big difference between this Hunting for Bambi business and Playboy magazine. Showing naked women is one thing; showing them having acts of violence directed at them is quite another. I have a bigger problem with the violence, but again, if the women don’t feel they’re being victimized, I think it’s pretty damn presumptuous to feel victimized on their behalf.

Why so many hangups about naked women? And why the assumption that appreciating female nudity is completely intertwined with the objectification of women, i.e. that it’s impossible to like nude photos and still appreciate a woman for her mind? I think any guy I’ve ever been romantically involved with would heartily disagree.

I wouldn’t want to expose myself to millions of readers, even if Playboy offered me $1 million to do so (highly unlikely in any case), but if someone else wants to, who am I to judge what she finds appropriate and/or explotative? I’m firmly in the camp of AvhHines; to me, oppression is in the eye of the oppressed, and it’s condescending to state that you believe you know what’s better for these women than they do.

  1. I cannot believe that anyone would think that the way a man treats women during 99.9% of his waking hours is more important than what he thinks during the few minutes he might take to flip through an issue of Playboy. And yes, I’ve read Playboy (they do have some interesting articles, really!); my ex had a free subscription, as he worked at a health club 2 blocks from their corporate headquarters and was friendly with most of the editors, columnists, and executive staff, many of whom were his regular clients. In fact, one longtime regular columnist was extremely supportive to me on a relationship issue, although he reallyt didn’t know me that well, and gave me some excellent perspective on the male mindset. Really, the editorial staff of Playboy treats women as equals in all respects that I’ve seen.

Maybe this makes me a freak, but I’ll take that risk…and anyone who questions my dedication to feminism on that basis will promptly have his/her head bitten off. Feminism is about choices. If you want to convince the Bambis that they have better choices available to them, then be my guest. But if you are going to preach about them behind their backs and make assumptions regarding how naive they are and how victimized they have been by the patriarchy without any evidence about what they think, we’re going to call you on it.

Eva Luna, probably the only woman in America who subscribes to both Cosmo and Foreign Policy

Olentzero, like many other people, seems to have bought into a warped form of feminism.

As I see it there are two kinds of feminism. We might call them normal feminism and radical feminism, but it would be more descriptive to call them liberation feminism and anger feminism.

Liberation feminism recognizes that women have been severely limited by unfair laws, stereotypes, and traditions that treat them differently from men. I wholeheartedly support liberation feminism because it fights for fairness and against ignorant cultural beliefs. The only battle is the enlightened people of both genders against the unenlightened of both genders.

Anger feminism promotes the idea of a class struggle with males as the dominant class that wants to subjugate the female class. Every issue brought up by the anger feminists is aimed at instilling anger and paranoia by women against men, or arguing that women are superior to men. While liberation feminism is a noble cause, anger feminism is a warped and twisted ideology.

Why does anger feminism exist? Because it works. Liberation feminism asks people to give up their preconceived prejudices. This is hard for people. Anger feminism incites people using fear and anger, which has traditionally been quite easy. Religious leaders have manipulated people through fear of the devil and witchcraft, Hitler manipulated people through fear and anger toward Jews and Gypsies and others, Joe McCarthy manipulated people through fear of Communism, George W. manipulates people through fear of terrorists. People who are afraid will often fail to question even the lamest of arguments, and this has worked wonderfully for the anger feminists such as Andrea Dworkin, Catharine McKinnon and many others.

One of the sad things is how sexuality plays into this. Some of the worst traditions of our culture involve the demonization of sexuality. This was promoted by the most sexist elements of society - the Catholic Church, the Mormons, fundamentalist Protestants, and conservative Islam. Sex outside of marriage was disgusting, pornography was disgusting, public nudity was disgusting, lust was disgusting. In particular, sex degraded women (but not men particularly) because, when fathers wanted to sell their daughters (like property) to potential husbands, it was difficult to find a buyer if the woman was not pure and innocent. Why would anger feminists jump on this obviously sexist anti-sexuality bandwagon? Because it works for demonizing men. Since men tend to have higher sex drives than women, they tend to be the ones pushing for more sex - they are the ones willing to pay prostitutes or pay for strippers or pornography. By accepting the taboos as valid, all these activities can then be used as evidence that men are eager to humiliate, degrade, objectify, and otherwise harm women. This is complete bullshit. Men just like sex.

I enjoy strip shows and pornography (haven’t been to a prostitute), as does virtually every man I know. I don’t have any desire to humiliate or hurt women in any way. Nor, from what I can tell talking to other men, do any of them want to harm or humiliate or degrade women. Women involved in the sex business should not feel humiliated by it, but if they do, it is because of the many taboos that our culture still promotes. We should solve this problem by trying to get rid of those taboos, not by trying to stifle sexuality.

OK, I don’t know where you guys are getting that I’m assuming that appreciating female nudity is completely equal to sexual objectification, or that I buy into some theory of a class struggle between men and women, or that I think women who pose for Playboy have no other value. Nor do I think that stifling sexuality is the solution.

The only thing I have a problem with is sex being treated as a commodity - something that can be exchanged for money. When sex is treated as a commodity, it opens the door for people like Burdick or Hefner or any one of the numberless pimps and madams across the globe to make profits off of another person’s ability to arouse sexual desire. The dancers, models, and prostitutes, whatever other skills and abilities they have, don’t have any other value to the sex industry and its customers than that. They aren’t people to the sex industry, they are objects that make money. That’s what I find disgusting.

Finally, humiliation, oppression, and exploitation aren’t just feelings. They’re actions first and foremost. I’ve said it before - a person may not feel humiliated or exploited or oppressed, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are being subjected to such things.

They may be able to live a fairly decent lifestyle by doing what they’re doing, but it all still boils down to the fact that they can only do so as long as someone else is confident they can make money off their doing so. That’s exploitation.

And the more they depend on the kind of money they can make, the more they’re willing to do things they wouldn’t otherwise want to do if money weren’t part of the equation. That’s humiliation.

And the more money they make for whoever’s running the business, the more demand is placed on them to do nothing but sell their bodies in whatever fashion they’re asked to, at the expense of whatever further education or other personal development they might be able to afford outside of their job. That’s oppression.

Videos like Burdick’s aren’t the cause of sexual exploitation, they’re a symptom. It won’t do any good to try to shut Burdick down - that would be like trying to prune a tree by plucking off each individual leaf. Stopping the commodification of sex in general, so that sexuality becomes a human phenomenon that people choose to celebrate at will without having financial considerations enter it, is the real solution. But the work has to start somewhere, and speaking out against stupid stuff like “Hunting for Bambi” is as good a place to start as any.

I was a bit rash earlier in claiming I was out of this debate - high dudgeon will do that. But I now feel I’ve thoroughly explored my thoughts on the subject thanks to those serious questions that the rest of you raised, so I don’t think I have anything more to say.

Unsupported, and unless you can find something to support this, I’m calling “bullshit.” As I commented earlier, being interested in watching fictional portrayals of some action does not mean that they would be interested in watching or participating in real versions of it.

i just want to know if you get to have sex with the ‘Bambi’ that you get… that would make the $5k spent a little better investment.