Don’t hold your breath, Blalron.
Quoted for, uh, er, ah-- – truthiness!
Yep, that’s our curlcoat! She really doesn’t require any further explanation. As someone said around here somewhere:
Simple ignorance is easily corrected; willful ignorance can never be overcome.
Might’ve been me. I said ‘Ignorance can be fought. Willful ignorance cannot’ earlier.
curlcoat goes on and on about people making ‘bad choices’. Yet she chooses to spend money on ‘dog events’ and then complains about not being able to afford a prescription that a ‘starving student’ can find the money for. Sounds like a ‘bad choice’ to me. If her husband is making six figures and their budget is so tight, it sounds as if a lot of ‘bad choices’ have been made in that household. And if they really are in such dire straits that even a zero-dollar increase in taxes to pay for UHC hurts them, then it’s probably a ‘bad choice’ to spend the money on ‘dog events’ in the first place.
Might’ve been. I paraphrased.
**curlcoat’s **choices are not up for review by the likes of you or me. Having been made by her, they are necessarily perfect and beyond reproach. She just needs something to feed her manufactured outrage, and other people’s choices are it.
There’s a Doper in trouble now. Medical condition made it impossible to keep his job (of helping people) or getting another job, living with a relative, bills to pay, and can’t afford his medication. People are helping him out with financial donations as well as well-wishes.
And then I read this thread. curlcoat reminds me of this quote:
‘What then? If he be like to die, he had better do it, and decrease the surplus population… Man, if man you be in heart, not adamant, forbear that wicked cant until you have discovered What the surplus is, and Where it is. Will you decide what men shall live, what men shall die? It may be, that in the sight of Heaven, you are more worthless and less fit to live than millions like this poor man’s child. Oh God! To hear the Insect on the leaf pronouncing on the too much life among his hungry brothers in the dust.’
As I read about our friend in need, and then read this thread, I’m reminded of another quote:
‘As ye sow, so shall ye reap.’
This isn’t an accusation, it’s a fact: you were asked to stop PMing me. You didn’t until threatened with Mod action. Then you brought up the contents of PMs in two separate threads. I’m not per se accusing you of being childish. I’m not actually accusing you of anything, just pointing out the facts of the situation.
Bullshit. You hate children and you fear poverty. You can play semantic games all you want but it’s patently and demonstrably true.
You said:
Then why don’t you explain to the class what you meant? Since now you want to play baby word games.
There are a lot of things worse than that which should not be happening. But happen it does, and you can’t stop it. It’s not possible to prevent in a free country. That’s when the question becomes, what do you do about it? The babies are going to exist. You can’t ignore them. That’s shitty public policy and not likely to improve society. I’ve seen what your solutions are, and they are as retarded and costly as they are unlikely to be implemented. So this is a futile conversation. But don’t mock me for caring about babies. Like I said, it’s enlightened self-interest, not sappy sentimentalism.
Yes, you did say she was lying:
Clearly you think I am foolish for believing that she actually is working to get off assistance, and you don’t believe her, even though she says she is. I call that an accusation of lying. What do you call it? Own your words. Stop weaseling out of them when held accountable.
I don’t know, why do YOU keep going on and on? The only way in which torie cannot support her children is that she cannot afford health care for them, a quandary that many millions of working poor Americans face. She feeds, clothes, and shelters them without help. I wouldn’t call that “not supporting her children,” unless I was trying to be a huge bitch.
Are you claiming that I should know what your husband’s actual salary is, but I’m pretending I don’t? All I know is it’s six figures. The actual number matters when determining taxation rates.
Who gives a rat’s ass about the private insurance companies? I care about what it costs ME, personally, and how it affects the uninsured. Why are you more concerned for the welfare of private insurers than that of poor people who need medical care?
Are you going to do the research to find out if, in fact, UHC will cost you any more in taxes? Isn’t that the crux of your entire bitch here, that it’s going to cost you so much money? Don’t you want to know if it’s actually going to? Why are you content to believe the worst without knowing the truth?
la, la, la <snip> I don’t care … …I’m not going to bother to look… <snip> la, la, la
See post #185
Yup, been there, did that.
Here is post #185 in its entirety:
There is nothing in there remotely resembling a cite. A claim that somewhere you’ve posted on the subject (twice, even), sure, but that’s pretty much useless. What’s everyone else supposed to do, search your posting history for an actual cite? Hell, I’ve already put more effort into trying to figure out what you’re talking about you put into claiming it, and I still don’t even know where your cite might be, much less how well it might support your contentions.
It’s funny how you always change the subject when your childishness is pointed out.
Because you say so?
You could try to see that they aren’t born in such situations to begin with, to work harder at teaching their mothers (and fathers if they are around) to take care of themselves instead of just throwing money at them. You could notice that we have been throwing money at all of these poor starving children for decades, yet they are still here, all over, with more every year. You, who says you care about children are satisfied that they are raised so poorly and so many of them tend to repeat what they grew up with.
You know, think for yourself? I know, it’s hard.
If you will note, that quote was about you, what you believe, what you are willing to accept as whole cloth. I have no idea, and you have no idea what the truth actually is, all we know is what some stranger on an internet board told us. But you rush to believe, and that is a big part of what is wrong with all of the government assistance programs.
I don’t think she is being realistic. She said herself that even when she gets out of school, she most likely won’t be able to get a job that will offer group coverage - what will she do then if there is no UHC? I don’t agree with her that she is supporting her children, if they are on Medicaid. Nor do I agree with her idea that her children are going to end up being “important”. It’s nice to have goals and ambition, but to think your children are all important is a bit much.
None of which involves any of that lying you are on about. It’s called a difference of opinion, a difference in perception. Lying requires an intent to deceive.
How do you know that much? Think about it, maybe it’ll come to you.
I didn’t say I was concerned for the “welfare” of the private insurers. I was pointing out one possible result from some of the things in the bill, that the restrictions put on private companies might end up forcing some or all of them out of business. I’d rather have a bunch of choices than just a few. Or only one.
If you would actually read what I post instead of rushing to judge, you would see that I’ve done just that. Unlike you, I am able to see all kinds of possible outcomes, rather than just the one I like.
I’m going to take your lack of answer as an admission that I have bested you. I didn’t jump to any conclusions about you, I was trying to answer your query about Canadian UHC. Explain to me what conclusions I jumped to. While you’re at it, explain where exactly I ‘sidestepped’.
As for my parents, why is it that you can use personal anecdotes to support your case but nobody else can?
Sorry, screwed up and didn’t answer the last part…
Well, I suppose I do live better than you in so far as I am happy and people like me. But, clearly you know nothing about grad students if you think I am rolling in it. I rent with roommates, don’t own a car, and hardly ever buy clothes or electronics. Still, I have a small cushion of emergency money because I’m smart enough to know that sometimes things happen.
If you genuinely cannot put your hands on $60 given your income level, you are not budgeting properly. You have a problem - you are living beyond your means. No wonder you are so nervous about money.
You are trying to make the subject my childishness, when the subject is the fact that you keep bringing up and discussing the contents of private messages. You’ve done it twice. kaylasdad said you should stop. It’s up to you if you will or not. The fact that I no longer wish to PM with you and will consider it harassment if you try it again in no way precludes me from addressing you in threads. Got it?
Why not take a poll and see just how many people think so? Just because you can’t perceive how you come off doesn’t mean it’s not so.
I disagree that we are just throwing money at them. The very things you call “throwing money at them” I call “trying to help them better themselves.” Your criteria seems to be that they simply shouldn’t exist. If you want to help prevent future welfare recipients, you have to help current recipients, and their BAYBEES. Which is what I keep saying. It’s been demonstrated to you that most people do not remain on welfare for long periods of time. You keep acting as if the majority of people who use it are lifetime freeloaders despite having no proof. Nothing anyone can say will convince you. So why bother?
Cite?
This is hilarious coming from a person unable to offer a single, solitary cite for any of her opinions. If making shit up = thinking for yourself, then yeah, you’re a champ at it.
I believe TORIE when SHE says she is working towards getting off Medicaid. I see no reason to give her a bunch of shit about her plans, which when viewed without a jaundiced eye, seem perfectly reasonable. You do, because you area huge bitch. That’s the bottom line.
I don’t agree that you’re supporting yourself, if you are on SSDI. Are you being a freeloader? No? Why not? I know, you paid into it! torie and her husband are paying into it too, and also taking out, just like you. They provide for all their children’s other material needs. They simply want their kids to have medical care, something that is a problem for millions of the working poor, because health care costs are extortionistically expensive in this country, hence the call for UHC. In Canada, torie wouldn’t be a freeloader at all. Crossing the border makes all the difference between “providing for your family” and not. Doesn’t that strike you as odd, and rather disturbing?
God, she didn’t say ALL IMPORTANT. They are important. Everyone is fucking important. torie’s children are important to her, and they are as important as everyone else and deserve the same chances at life and health. They don’t deserve to get sick and have to stay sick because their parents can’t afford health insurance in this screwed up country. torie wasn’t saying her kids are objectively the most important people in the world. But they are just as important at you are.
Because you said so. If you cited an exact figure, I don’t remember it.
If they go out of business then it was because they couldn’t compete because they were inefficient. That’s how the market works. Their overhead and administrative costs are ridiculous. They either need to cut the bloat or go out of business. That’s what would be best for the country, not saying, “I don’t want the insurance companies to go out of business, so no UHC!”
No, you have not posted any answer to my, kayladad’s, or Blalron’s questions. You could offer ACTUAL NUMBERS, you know, of what you would be paying under the plans that stand the best chance of passing. Have you? No. You are sidestepping and making shit up. You have no idea what, if anything, UHC will actually cost you. Imagining dire scenarios where it bankrupts you? Pure fiction. Just admit that you have zero evidence for this and let it go.
Perhaps if you went back to post 151 and actually read what I wrote there, you would see that what you said had almost zero to do with what I asked. No where did you say anything about any of those countries except Canada, no where did you say anything about what the tax burden is, how many are being supported by it, the size of the middle class or any of the other variables that I brought up.
I realize that due to your experience, you think that a UHC is the best thing since not paying taxes simply because you are a student (something else the US doesn’t do), but I think that anyone with a brain would notice that telling me that your parents are “solidly” middle class and are happy with Canada’s healthcare system is hardly answering any of my questions. Did you intend to sidestep, or do you really not understand that these things could easily make a big difference as to whether such a program would be a good thing for the US?
This is just a general observation after wading through this really awful thread. Curlcoat…you may not be but you certainly appear to be a heartless, insensitive and incredibly selfish human being. Everything is about YOU. Your money, your retirement, your situation. You seem to have zero ability to empathize with anyone else. When I picture you in my head, which is unfortunate in and of itself, I see a bitter lonely woman who is shrieking at the kids in the neighborhood “stay off my lawn, go home, hope you get hit by a car, wish your mother had had an abortion.” And I’d be willing to bet money—not much, since I’m recently unemployed—that you go to church each Sunday and listen to the sermons without a hint of irony.
No differences there.
I guess the difference here is that I understand that buying a new prescription, that I don’t know if it will work or not, just right off without looking into it doesn’t qualify as an emergency. Particularly since the RX was just to mitigate my symptoms some (maybe), not fix or cure anything.
Actually, the fact I wasn’t willing to just pony up that $60 shows that I hold to my budget well and am not living beyond our means. As it turned out, the dr was able to prescribe a generic that appears to be working as well as can be expected, for only $10. It has nothing to do with being able to put my hands on $60 and everything to do with simply being careful and aware. Which doesn’t make me nervous about money.
Ahhh, curlcoat, you never cease to amuse. This was my original question, which sparked this particular debate:
Can you concentrate real hard and see why I focused on Canada? It was the main thrust of my question, but I would have liked to hear about the UK or other countries if you knew anything about them.
I was trying to put the tax burden into human terms, but since apparently personal anecdotes are allowed only from you, I used this to calculate income tax on an income of $110,000 (since that is what I think you said your husband earns). In BC, the closest analogue to your west coast home, you would pay $29,826. This is less than what you pay, as per your claim that your husband pays more in taxes than you personally have ever earned.
As for the size of the middle class, that is somewhat arbitrary as there are many possible definitions of middle class, but here is a breakdown of the number of Canadians in each class according to one system - 33.2% of households are considered middle class. In Canada 11.4%of the population are below the poverty line, while in the US 12.5% are (those bastards who you think are bleeding the system dry). So where is this big difference that makes Canada suitable for UHC and not the US?
There, do you feel better now that I’ve provided hard facts to prove you wrong rather than the anecdotal evidence we are supposed to believe from you?
I don’t pay taxes not simply because I’m a student, but because I do not earn enough. Furthermore, my scholarship is not taxable as it came from the government. Most students do not pay tax but if they earn enough they certainly can. I have certainly heard of and seen applications for tax-free American scholarships, so there are students in the same scenario in your country.
I am happy with UHC because it allows me to pursue my education without worrying about my healthcare costs bankrupting me or costing my parents a lot of cash. My government is supporting me with a research scholarship because I earned it with years of hard work, and because they understand that helping people to get started creates more productive members of society. You can bet when I get my PhD and a good job I will not need to suck up to some sugardaddy husband to pay my way for me - I will be capable of bringing home the bacon myself.
And when I do earn an income I have to pay taxes on, I will do so with pleasure. I will write a big old check while whistling a happy little tune and drawing little smiley faces dotting the i’s. I don’t need to begrudge other people the basic human rights to make myself feel important.
Who’s sidestepping now? When you brought up this prescription you made it sound like a sacrifice you made because you are so responsible. But you actually got the same thing cheaper. Hmmm, imagine if you could get all your healthcare cheaper…
Here is a story about a family where, between the two of them, the parents work 5 jobs. The father worked full time, but his business was sold, and now he only has part-time hours. They have health insurance, but it was inadequate to cover their daughter’s surgery bills. They currently pay out 45% of their income to cover those bills.
It’s hard to find a way to see how these people are being irresponsible or how they brought this on themselves. This is the kind of story that makes me favor UHC. It would guarantee a minimum level of coverage in employer provided plans, so people aren’t paying premiums for coverage that fails them when they need it most.
The subject started out being your childishness.
You want me to take a poll to find out if I hate children and fear poverty? :dubious:
If it isn’t working, then it doesn’t matter what you want to call it.
For what? That more babies are born in poverty each year? Do you think that somehow none are?
AGAIN, there is a huge difference between contributing to society for 35+ years and then taking one’s social security, and deciding that society owes you support because your children are going to be “important”. Your continually trying to pretend that my taking my social security early, after those decades of paying into society, is the same as people who start out by taking just shows how weak your position is.
That you think that expecting the government to help support you qualifies as “providing for your family”? Yes.
No. You don’t understand how insurance companies work, so you don’t understand what impact some of those proposed laws would have.
No, I can’t if for no other reason that I don’t know which plans stand the best chance of passing - do you? From what I’ve seen most recently, none of them have much of a chance. But since you like to play pretend, lets say that the one where they plan to only tax those that make over $350K passes - with that one, the apparent plan is it wouldn’t cost me anything. But, if any one of those variables I listed happens, it will cost me money because they will have to get the money from someplace. Do you think that simply because a bill passes that says they will only tax a certain income, that is the only place the funds will come from, forever?
The thing is, you can’t cite any ACTUAL NUMBERS either. Because nobody actually knows what it’s going to end up costing - how can you estimate how often services will be used, what services, what they will end up costing, how much it will cost to have a new government entity to administer it, how it will ultimately affect the private insurance companies, how it will ultimately affect research.