New Study: 45,000 die in U.S every year from lack of healthcare

[Rubystreak]

@curlcoat

Uh, hon? I mentioned it once. You are the one that keeps harping on it.

Uh, babe? You brought it up unprovoked in the thread about that schizophrenic woman who ate her baby. Then you broke it up unprovoked in this thread. That’s twice, and it hasn’t been that long, so you will likely bring it up again. I have never brought it up, only responded to you when you lied about it. It’s you who can’t let it go. Prove me wrong by dropping it now, if you can.

not because a mod wanted to keep me from getting the last word.

Still not great at reading, are ya? I never said a mod closed it to prevent you from getting the last word. A mod closed it because it was resurrected by people who didn’t want you to have the last word, even if that last word was from two months before. You inspire that kind of love.

See, these are examples of why it is difficult for me to take anything you say seriously. You pick and chose, reinterpret, flat lie and just make shit up.

I feel the same way about you, sweetie. The exact same way.

All because you don’t agree with my opinions on universal healthcare.

No, it’s because you are cruel and deliberately unpleasant to people you deem worthy of your scorn, and evince no compassion or empathy whatsoever. I’d feel the same way about you if we agreed about UHC.

You harp on our income as if that is the be all and end all of whether or not we can afford anything.

How many times have you bragged about how fiscally responsible you are, how careful, how thrifty? If you are those things, as you claim, and you have the income you claim, then poverty due to UHC should not be a real or pressing concern for you. You are being inconsistent.

You cherry pick facts about this area and pretend you know what income is needed to live comfortably. You insist that there is nothing wrong with us doing without some things so that others can have things they want. Because you disagree with me, you easily believe all sorts of negative things about me, but cannot fathom that any of those working poor that need insurance could possibly be anything other than hard working folk being held down by the man.

I do know what income is needed to live comfortably. Just because I disagree with you about what it means to be middle class, ipso facto I’m the one with the distorted view of cost of living? I actually work for a living. I pay taxes. ALL OF US who pay taxes are doing without things so that others can have help when they need it. Some of us are more gracious about it, because there but for the grace of God and all. You don’t see it that way. All you see is grasping hands, not humans in need. Even someone like torie, who is busting her ass to get off government assistance permanently earns nothing but your vitriol and scorn. No one can win with you. I don’t know why I bother to try.

I don’t care if you want to be a bleeding heart, just don’t expect that you can force, insult or trick me into believing you. You want me to agree with your opinion, act like an adult instead of a gradeschooler.

You think you’re acting like an adult? SNORT. I know you’ll never believe me. All this personal, bitchy slap-fighting between us is to distract from the fact that I asked you for CONCRETE CITES, which you can provide, that you will be made poor by UHC. Put up or shut up.

[curlcoat]

@kaylasdad99

Easy. Scan copies of your husband’s pay stub (showing all deductions and withholdings), your Social Security check, and all of your bills. Post them to Flicker.

This would, of course, entail you relinquishing any feelings you may be harboring that the financial details of your life are none of our business. And if you were to do so, I, for one, would be VERY creeped out.

OK, you say the only way I can prove that we don’t have all of this disposable income you all seem to think we have is to post all these details, but then you’d say it would creep you out? Huh. I guess that means I can’t win either way. Neat.

Another approach might be to read Rubystreak’s request as asking you to provide well-defended numbers outlining how much a UHC program would cost, on the whole, and how much of that burden would come out of your (and your husband’s) personal pockets.

You know I can’t do that since those facts don’t exist, at least not to the average person. I might be able to find out what our state MediCal and DentiCal cost, but that would also depend if I felt like taking the time to sift thru all of Google on dial up. Heck, maybe the government will just add to the deficit to fund it - is that a better way? I don’t know. It might be better for me since I won’t be leaving any children to bear that deficit, but it doesn’t seem like a good idea.

Mind you, all currently considered plans include in their assumptions the provision that household incomes that do not exceed $350K will bear no additional tax burden. If you choose to discard that assumption, please state your justification for doing so (something empirical would be preferred).

AGAIN - that doesn’t appear to be doing all that well in Congress right now, so there is certainly no guarantee that will be the final version. Nor is there any guarantee that in the future the government wouldn’t discover that tax wouldn’t cover such an expensive venture and so start taxing those who make less.

ALSO AGAIN - the discussion on this subject in here has not been limited to whatever is currently being considered in Congress, so some of my responses have been to those who want a true universal healthcare plan.

It will be perfectly understandable if your desire to leave vague the question of whether or not your household income meets the $350K mark prevents you from responding with complete candor.

Uh, no, we are no where near that mark.

[Rubystreak]

@kaylasdad99

Get a room, you two.

What happens in PM stays in PM. Can we at least have that general practice?

Well, it’s been made clear recently in ATMB that the contents of PMs are not confidential, once and for all, and there is no penalty for revealing them. Curlcoat brought up the contents of our PMs before in a previous thread, out of the blue and without prompting from me, just as she did in this one. So, kindly direct your criticism towards her, since the Mods aren’t going to do anything about it and I’m not going to let her lie about it if she insists on bringing it up any time I have the bad judgment to address her.

[woodstockbirdybird]

@curlcoat

Nope. I don’t change my opinions simply because it might benefit me or mine. But, if I did, how would that differ from the selfish views of those who think that others should pay for their healthcare?

As has been pointed out to you about a billion times now, even with insurance the way it is now, YOU PAY FOR OTHERS’ HEALTHCARE AND THEY PAY FOR YOURS. Not gonna rehash that one; it’s been explained to you ad nauseum.

I will point out that I (and, I’d wager, the vast majority of those arguing with you) pay for my healthcare, yet I’m still willing to pay (more, if necessary) for everyone to have coverage. Explain to me how I’m selfish for this. You’re always focusing on these mythical boogeymen who want to steal your savings to fund their treatment. It ain’t so. Plenty of us middle-class workers are for UHC, too.

[curlcoat]

@Rubystreak

You disputed my definition of middle class, saying that Orange County was so much more expensive. I cited the average median salary for Orange County. If you make 50% more than that, it’s safe to say that, for that county, you’re not middle class.

OK, lets try it this way. If you look at our county seat, Santa Ana, you’ll see that it is very densely populated, mostly by immigrants making low wages. So, if you take the median income of all those poor people, do you decide that those who are making the median of low wages must be middle class?

Your mantra, whenever anyone has to ask for help or falls on hard times, is that they didn’t plan adequately. I could dig up cites where you said just this, even when it was pointed out to you that it would be nearly impossible to plan adequately for a catastrophic illness. But I sense this will be futile and that you will deny it anyway.

My response to you would be the same as it was back then - I am fully aware that one cannot possibly plan for everything, but far too many people use that as an excuse to do no planning at all. Given the recent history of our country, they are most likely assuming that if something catastrophic happens, someone else will bail them out. Have a bad mortgage? Government will fix it for you. Ran up your credit cards and can’t afford to pay them? File bankruptcy and much of your debt will get written off. Owe the IRS thousands of dollars? Get one of those companies to get the IRS to write off a bunch of it. How many families out there didn’t have a few months worth of bills in savings before they lost their jobs?

I guess that’s supposed to be an insult, because you know damn well who I am. I am not poor. I am middle class. I pay my taxes just like you, but I still want everyone to have health care.

Uh, well, if you want to consider being confused with Broomstick an insult, whatever, but no I don’t know damn well who you are. I’m sorry, but I don’t bother to keep track of everyone in here.

If the current watered down, toothless plans don’t pass, you think a Canada or UK style plan will? Not likely. Not even possible.

OK, then we will go forward on the assurance from Rubysteak that we will never have a universal healthcare system here!

@kaylasdad99

What, does he work out of your home? Haven’t you ever heard of commuting?

It is quite a bit more than just commuting. His specialty is centered around Orange County, Dallas and a couple of places on the east coast. Sure, we could sell our house here (if that is still possible) and move out to - where is cheap these days, Victorville? - but then there is that little problem with Prop 13. The husband has owned this house since 1984 so as bad as our property taxes are, they would skyrocket if we bought another house. Not to mention the expense of commuting, plus I’m not sure how much cheaper it would be since it seems like gas, groceries, utilities and all that wouldn’t be significantly different any place in commuting distance of Irvine.

Which of course doesn’t address why we should give up this house simply because some other people want to spend our money on things they want.

BTW - yeah, I saw the pit thread on me as troll, but I barely have time for this so I’m ignoring all of Rubystreak’s - cough - interesting stories on there.

[Rubystreak]

Bottom line: curlcoat cannot substantiate her claim that paying for UHC has any chance whatsoever of causing her family to lose their home or retirement fund, or go broke. She claims it’s not possible to prove this, despite being provided several ways to do so. Thus, we can conclude that she is once again talking a lot of bullshit here. Either she actually has no real idea what UHC will cost and is stubbornly clinging to ignorance so she doesn’t have to rethink her position, she’s delusional and paranoid about poverty and thus immune to facts anyway, or she’s employing hyperbole masquerading as real concern and thus, trolling.

In any case, not worth talking to. Which I already knew, of course. So that’s all, folks.

[pbbth]

@curlcoat

It is quite a bit more than just commuting. His specialty is centered around Orange County, **Dallas **and a couple of places on the east coast. Sure, we could sell our house here (if that is still possible) and move out to - where is cheap these days, Victorville?

Texas has some of the cheapest housing costs in the nation and no state tax. You can get a 5 bedroom, 2.5 bath house in a suburb of Dallas for less than $150,000. To sell your house and take that money and move to TX sounds like it would more than double your current savings AND cut back on your taxes and your husband’s work can be done there just like it can in CA.

[woodstockbirdybird]

But then how would she be able to continue complaining about how the liberals are raping the middle class?

[kaylasdad99]

@curlcoat

OK, you say the only way I can prove that we don’t have all of this disposable income you all seem to think we have is to post all these details, but then you’d say it would creep you out? Huh. I guess that means I can’t win either way. Neat.

Well, you shouldn’t win either way, seeing that you’re wrong, but I wasn’t trying to say that the only way you could prove your implied assertions of imminent destitution was by posting those details. Your post at 148 asked how it could be done, and the subtext seemed to be saying that you thought it impossible. I was just pointing out that it isn’t impossible, and giving a direct answer to your question as my means of demonstrating WHY it isn’t impossible.

I also indicated that you shouldn’t do that, but the two concepts (possible v. advisable) are separate.

I have an appointment to get to, and I am loath to discard the above unposted, so I’ll post it and return to address the rest later. If I feel like it.

[VinylTurnip]

@woodstockbirdybird

But then how would she be able to continue complaining about how the liberals are raping the middle class?

Oh, I’m pretty sure they complain of that in Texas too.

[curlcoat]

@Meyer6

Yeah, I do know what the tax burden is in Canada and the UK since have lived in both those places and currently live in Canada. I am a graduate student (thus I pay no taxes and the government pays me from a research scholarship fund. How do you like them apples?), but my parents are squarely in the middle class and probably in your age group and have absolutely no complaints about paying taxes for universal health care and the other social systems that support our society. They are certainly not in any immenant danger of losing their house or mortgage.

That’s nice. What does that have to do with my situation?

I will keep my eye out for people dying in the streets the next time I’m out and about, but I have never seen them so far.

Neither have I, despite having lived in Washington for 35 years, California for 17 and having visited Vancouver, Victoria, Mexico City, Tijuana, New York City and many many other places.

Canada has had UHC since the 1960s - certainly a long time, but within memory for lots of people. There was apparently a lot of hue and cry about it at the time, but clearly it worked out pretty well.

Canada has had a nationwide UHC since the 1960’s but they eased into it over several decades, unlike what is happening here.

By your very own admission you were young and healthy when you were living in poverty previously. If you have all the health problems you claim to have surely you realize that your health care is costing more now. How would you be paying for that?

There was nothing about me being healthy in what you quoted, so I don’t know where you are getting that idea. I have been chronically ill since my teens and the health care I get is to merely ease the affects, it doesn’t actually treat anything. If I had no money, then I’d be suffering more from those affects. Actually, as I do know as I just yesterday decided to not buy one of the prescriptions because it was going to cost $60, even with insurance. Because, you know, we aren’t rich…

[Blalron]

Still waiting for a cite that shows that any of the bills going through Congress will increase curlcoat’s tax burden.

You’re a very persistant poster, curlcoat, but I promise that as long as you keep posting to this thread, I will keep asking. I’m prepared to keep asking you for a cite until hell freezes over, or the mods lock this thread down. Whatever comes first.

[Idle_Thoughts]

@woodstockbirdybird

As has been pointed out to you about a billion times now, even with insurance the way it is now, YOU PAY FOR OTHERS’ HEALTHCARE AND THEY PAY FOR YOURS. Not gonna rehash that one; it’s been explained to you ad nauseum.

She knows this. She is IGNORING YOU (and others).
Here’s the reason I think why. (obligitory link to pit thread in thread where (one of) pittable posts takes place in)

@woodstockbirdybird

But then how would she be able to continue complaining about how the liberals are raping the middle class?

Because she is trolling.

[Idle_Thoughts]

nm

[Blalron]

@curlcoat

There was nothing about me being healthy in what you quoted, so I don’t know where you are getting that idea. I have been chronically ill since my teens and the health care I get is to merely ease the affects, it doesn’t actually treat anything. If I had no money, then I’d be suffering more from those affects. Actually, as I do know as I just yesterday decided to not buy one of the prescriptions because it was going to cost $60, even with insurance. Because, you know, we aren’t rich…

Looks like you could use a public health insurance option which negotiates lower drug prices.

I admire you sticking to your princples though. You really do have the courage of your convictions, being willing to suffer so Big Pharma can make bigger profits.

[woodstockbirdybird]

@curlcoat

Canada has had a nationwide UHC since the 1960’s but they eased into it over several decades, unlike what is happening here.

Damn, I must have missed the bill that was promising to ram UHC through as a national policy. You don’t do any justice to your arguments when you have no idea what the issues are.

[Johnny_L.A]

@curlcoat

We live on a budget, we have never been on vacation other than the occasional weekend to Vegas

Later…

@curlcoat

and having visited Vancouver, Victoria, Mexico City, Tijuana, New York City and many many other places.

Uh-huh…

[Rubystreak]

curlcoat spent $50,000 on her dog’s chemo but can’t afford $60 for her own prescription? WTF?

[TheScogg]

Curlcoat, you and your ilk absolutely sicken me. Do you not realize that us poor people are the reason wealthier people such as yourself are able to afford the lavish lifestyles you do?

I work for a small company making $8/hour, uninsured. It’s “educated” work (graphic design, printing, etc.) and I’ve been doing it for 6 years. I used to make more than I do now, but the economic hardships took me down a level. Anyways, I work just as hard as you do every day of my life to ensure that the company I work for makes a “profit” off my work. That is their incentive for hiring me - that’s how capitalism works - that’s how people in high positions get in high positions. My “worth” is much greater than my paycheck, but I don’t get to see the payoff. I’m not protesting this - it’s how our wonderful country runs - just pointing it out.

Basically, my point is : How dare you call me a freeloader for wanting a fraction of the same health care you get. I don’t have a giant savings account. I don’t have a yacht I can sell if I get sick. I work as hard as you do (trust me, I do) and yet I can’t even have something as basic as first world health care?!? All because you’re too stingy to part with another 2% of your hundreds of thousands of dollars? I give 30 effing % of my measly 8/hour paycheck to the government every week and you’re bitching about 2% of many thousands? Why? Because I deserve to be poor and unhealthy if I fail to secure a Fortune 500 CEO position straight out of Harvard? You do realize that you wouldn’t be well off if everybody so oh so enlightened and intelligent and successful as you are, don’t you? You do realize we need ditchdiggers in this society and the deserve to live too, right?

Their are so many “unskilled” laborers out there absolutely busting their collective butts to keep this country running smoothly (sanitation workers, builders, farm workers, and many more). People that are absolutely putting in 100% every day so everyone else can live in one of the best countries in the world. How dare you call them a freeloader because they don’t want to spend 20 years of their wages on an unfortunate accident.

“There’s room at the top, they are telling you still, but first you must learn how to smile as you kill” - John Lennon. Wise words from a wise man. Good riddance!

[Johnny_L.A]

@woodstockbirdybird

Damn, I must have missed the bill that was promising to ram UHC through as a national policy. You don’t do any justice to your arguments when you have no idea what the issues are.

@curlcoat

I have no idea what the tax burden in those countries is, do you? (Tho I seem to remember that all of the rich people were leaving the UK at some point because their taxes were so high.) I also have no idea how many people they are supporting with their taxes, how much money they put into research. Nor do I know that they don’t have people “dying in the street” from preventable problems.

How much of a middle class do these countries have? How long have they had the UHCs and what if any private insurance countries did they have prior? What is their turn-away rate? What is included in that per capita health expenditure in your Wiki article? How much difference does malpractice insurance expenses make?

curlcoat admits her ignorance.

She had already been given many cites before that post, and she still doesn’t know.

Ignorance can be fought. Willful ignorance cannot.