kind of hard to “go straight” when you’re already in the left turn lane.
anyway, the taught thing in MI is pull out into the intersection while waiting, and if you have to wait until the light changes then you are to complete your turn and get out of the intersection at the light change if the front of your car is in or past the crosswalk.
Yeah, I was thinking of the situation where there is no turn lane and your blocking traffic thats trying to go straight.
But if your in a turn lane you can wait. And if the traffics so bad on a regular basis you never get a chance to turn then maybe your town needs to put turn signal there?
I’m not saying I’ve never inched into the intersection to take advantage of the “all red” moment and complete a left turn, but I’d be shocked if it was a legal driving maneuver.
I think the proper thing to do is remain out of the intersection and wait until the oncoming traffic has a break in it allowing you to legally make the turn from your position outside the intersection all the way into the roadway into which you are turning. If the traffic is such that you cannot make that happen, then I think you are obligated to sit there until a point when someone in the oncoming traffic lane waves you through.
Again, not saying I’ve never done the wait in the intersection thing, but I will say virtually all intersections around here with very busy traffic such that I would have to wait for an “all red” to complete a left turn have dedicated turn signals (again, I’m not saying I’ve never done the pull into the intersection thing, but around here, I can’t remember having to in recent memory.)
Thats me too.
But I am typically doing that when I can see that an opening is coming up very shortly so that I am in place when it comes. That gets me through the intersection JUST AS FAST as someone who’s “hanging out there” to start with hoping a clearing comes but it avoids the “I was waiting for an opening that never came, people ran the red, the other guy wants to burn rubber and now everybody’s pissed” scenario.
It’s also what I was taught (and I also learned to drive in Michigan). The basic driver’s ed booklet put out by the state says the following:
Of course that doesn’t say anything precise about the legality of such a maneuver.
Why would it be illegal? You have the green to enter the intersection. You are yielding the opposing lane to traffic in that lane.
First, let me say that I do it on a daily basis, and won’t think twice about doing it even when a cop is around. BUT, although I’m not sure, it probably isn’t 100% “by the book” legal, and there are *several *good reasons why that might be so, depending on jurisdiction.
Intersections are for traveling through, not for stopping in. They are *inherently *dangerous places, and the closer you are to an intersection, the more danger you are in of being hit directly, or indirectly if two other cars collide and one careens into you.
Also, you never know when an emergency vehicle might need to get through the intersection and stopped cars can either slow them down or prevent them from getting through entirely. If you are first in line camping in the intersection, and there’s a line of cars directly behind you, and another line of cars directly opposite you doing the same in the other direction, a big fire truck that might need to get through the intersection might not be able to at all.
Also, there’s not only the issue when some of the cars continue to cut the red-light very close, or even run it outright, but even if they don’t, sometimes you have to assume that they *might *not stop and that means you might have to stay there a few seconds after the light turns red until it’s apparent that they are indeed stopping. Then there are the cars coming from that same direction who may be making a right turn, and that can sometimes lead to ambiguous right-of-way circumstances, specially if it’s one of those intersections where they have a green right-turn arrow.
There’s lots of good reasons why it would be illegal. But largely as a result of poor intersection design, traffic-light programming, and the “every man for himself” traffic that results, it’s often necessary for making shitty traffic a bit more efficient.
I’m with the OP, it’s very annoying. Luckily, we don’t have many people sitting here in Chicago.
My related pet peeve are people who creep out into the sidewalk crossing but leave 1.5-2 car lengths of straight left turn lane in front of them. This means two annoying things: They will need a significantly larger (so less likely) gap in oncoming traffic to finally turn AND no one behind them can enter the intersection.
For you sitters, if there’s moderate oncoming traffic and no adequate ‘holes’ to slip through, how do you know when to finally go? When the light turns yellow? Be advised that this is unlawful in many areas. You my hear language like ‘Accelerating into an intersection on yellow’.
Moderator Warning
njtt, insults are not permitted in GQ. You’ve been around long enough to know this. This is an official warning. Do not do this again.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
What you are describing is illegal in most jurisdictions. You probably have an influx of drivers from other areas. The idea that you can pull out in the middle of an intersection and stop is completely foreign to most people who do not live in those metropolitan areas where it is allowed due to the high amount of traffic.
And if you have a stop here line, and it crosses the left turning lane, why wouldn’t you think it applied to you unless you were explicitly told otherwise?
EDIT: I should say thought to be illegal.
[Moderator Note]
This remark is also unnecessarily inflammatory for GQ. No warning issued, since it’s not a direct insult, but don’t do this again.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Speak for yourself, big boy. I learned to drive in a little podunk town in the middle of nowhere and that’s exactly what we were taught.
This is the only general question I see in the OP, which I don’t think anyone has attempted to answer. So far, few if any of the responses have tried to address this factually, but simply been statements of opinion. Given this, I am going to close this and direct the OP to start another thread in either IMHO or the Pit.
Colibri
General
[Moderator Instructions]
I’m reopening this at the request of the OP. This is GQ. Please restrict your answers to the legal aspects of this question, or to what standard driver’s manual or driving schools have to say about it. We don’t need to hear about how annoyed you are at other drivers for whatever reason. If you need to express yourself on this issue, pleas open a Pit thread. Further bickering or name calling between posters on either side of the issue may be subject to an official warning; likewise disparaging comments about drivers who use a strategy you don’t approve of.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Ok, to help move this discussion along, in NY State, quite legal:
Relevant NY DMV Manual chapter
And this is completely logical - there are certain intersections that don’t warrent a traffic arrow (because the left turning traffic count is too low), but the oncoming traffic (say, in rush-hour) is just too heavy - you can’t wait for 10-15 minutes, its unsafe to peel out in a hairy two-wheeler turn to meet that fraction of a open gap in oncoming traffic, the next left turn arrow is far, far away - its safest and most sensible to turn on the traffic signal phase turn (all lights I know in NY seem to have an all red-phase - is that required in the MUTCD?). And, yes, the above example is not contrived, I’ve experienced it often enough.
Any states or provinces which **don’t **allow this, time to lobby your legislature/parliament and get that law fixed as it falls under the Dicken’s “the law is an arse” clause.
BTW, Gridlock tickets:
Anti-gridlock “don’t block the box” laws are different in that they apply to vehicles going straight, when the exit of the intersection (the street ahead) is congested enough that you will NOT clear the intersection when the light phase changes against you - a village near me runs a sting operation every so often on this very infraction, as cars pull into a short block leading to a odd multistreet intersection, and end up blocking the box - the village cops merely walk over to the vehicles blocking the opposing travel lane, and point them to pull over to the street median so they can write them up. This proves gridlock ticketing exists in New Yorks State outside of NYC (which has had the law changed so that ‘traffic agents’ can also give out no-points gridlock tickets - formerly only police could give out gridlock tickets, which had points attached to them, but the law was changed in 2008 to make even more money, since now basically parking enforcement personel can give out such tickets)
Here’s a PDF of Manitoba’s Driver Handbook.
Referencing pages 41 and 42, it clearly states a left turning driver is to proceed into the intersection just shy of and to the right of the centre of the intersection and wait until there’s a break in traffic big enough to turn.
“If the light turns yellow or red while you are established in the intersection, watch for traffic slowing down to stop and complete your turn when it is safe. Always be alert for drivers attempting to race an amber light (if you are not already established in the intersection, you must not attempt the left turn when the light changes from green).”
To me, this is black and white with no shades of grey. It is the way I was taught and the way the vast majority of drivers conduct themselves in this jurisdiction. If you do not pull into the intersection and wait for a break in traffic, you are not driving correctly and you will earn the scorn of those backed up behind you. If you are in the intersection when the light turns amber, you wait for oncoming traffic to not go through the intersection and then proceed with your left turn. Cross traffic is obliged to wait for the intersection to clear before proceeding into it when their light turns green. If you hesitate too long or panic and don’t move, you do not possess the minimum skill level necessary to operate a motor vehicle in this jurisdiction and you are not a safe driver.
Personally, I’ve driven all across North America. In situations without a protected left turn signal, this is how I’ve performed left hand turns everywhere.
Clearly stated, it is not illegal or even sketchy. It is the way drivers are taught and expected to drive in Manitoba.
I look forward to seeing cites from any other jurisdiction in North America where the law differs.
I’m having trouble finding chapter and verse to cite for the Alberta Traffic Safety Act (where the OP and I are based) but I concur with SirRay and Critical Mass that not only is this allowed, it’s expected. It may even be required.
Here, if you’re not supposed to pull into the intersection while waiting to make a left, the light for the left turn lane stays red (or has a double red), and there’s a turning arrow. Otherwise, you pull into the intersection and turn left on the yellow or the red (when safe) so that at least one car gets through per cycle.
I can say that I was taught the same as Critical Mass and Sir Ray in driver training - you can proceed into the intersection on the green light and complete your turn when safe (on amber or even red if necessary). You can’t proceed into the intersection if there is already another car there waiting to complete its left turn, but otherwise green means you can enter the intersection. It’s common sense, really - otherwise if there’s heavy traffic you could hold up your lane forever.
I took Driver Training, and then later, Defensive Driving in Brandon, MB, in the late 70s. We were told to pull into the intersection but leave the wheels straight until it was safe to turn. The logic here was that if you were rear-ended with the wheels turned left, you would get bumped into the intersection which could lead to t-boning/getting t-boned or wiping out a pedestrian. Straight wheels means you might hit an oncoming left-turning car, but it was less likely to result in pedestrian death.
I don’t remember Edmonton drivers doing this one when I was there last in October, though I do remember lots of other bad driving habits, especially around traffic circles…
I’ll admit I don’t go very far at all when commuting, but I haven’t seen a catastrophic increase of annoying people not assuming the position. (I don’t recall it being a problem very often to start with even).
The traffic circle I’d believe, but that’s only because we have maybe 1/2 a dozen of them in the entire city, so nobody gets any practice on them.
Edit: There’s a ton of construction going on lately… if this happens more often in a specific place, this might be the reason.