The Swan Here’s your first post here:
“What is an acceptable vegetarian substitute for partially hydrogenated vegetable oil when making short biscuits?”
#2"I think you have. Biscuits are an excellent example of a product that needs a solid fat with a high smoke point to turn out well. There are only 2 products I know of that fit into that category: partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, and lard. My understanding is that the 0-trans shortening performs more like liquid oil when kneading the dough, but I can’t say for sure."
#3"If you made them with margarine, then I am not surprised. Most of the time, margarine and shortening are the same thing.
If you made it with butter only, then the biscuits would never be as short as they would be had they been made with some shortening."
#4
“Several people have pointed out the unique nature of certain trans fat products in this thread, yet you seem to be ignoring them for the sake of convenience.”
#5"I think you’re confused. Crisco was the first brand to commercialize partial hydrogenation… about 90 years ago."
#6"I’ve already pointed out the fact that shortening is both a solid fat & one with a high smoke point. Aside from animal fat (particularly lard & suet), this is the only fat with these properties that isn;t prohibitively expensive. The new shortening isn’t preferable to the old among bakers, it would seem.
Therefore, it is very difficult to make certain baked goods (biscuits, for one) vegetarian without it. Taste doesn’t really enter into it, though many chefs would argue that it is by far the cleanest tasting fat to fry with."
#7 "
That seems to be the question of the day among bakers. As I understand it, the new shortening has some liquid oil mixed in with the fully hydrogenated palm oil, which makes it slightly less easy to work with when mixing it in with flour. In other words, it has a slightly “looser” consistency.
It is up for debate in the baking world. Some (including Crisco) say the two products are interchangeable. Some say that statement is false. it all depends upon how much of the perceived difference is legitimate vs. Baker’s voodoo. I tend to go with legitimate, as many baking professionals tend to be rather fanatical about their products.
Anyway, good discussion all around."
#8 “Define additive.”
#9 “Bullshit”
#10 “Try reading the thread. Your link addresses nothing I have posted thus far.”
#11 “In other words, you concede my point. There are certain benefits to using trans-fats.
…and I use lard in my biscuits.”
#12 “If you can;t fins a recipe that calls for shortening, the you are the one who isn’t looking hard enough.”
#13 “Plus, the smoke point of butter isn’t high enough to create an extremely short biscuit. Many biscuit and pie crust recipes call for a combination of butter (for flavor) and shortening (for its smoke point). A hundred years ago, people often used lard instead of shortening if they didn’t want to use 100% butter.”
14 “Yes there are. I’ve discussed them. You have failed to address any of them.”
15"
Then you haven’t read the thread. I’ve explained about trans fat shortening’s properties, which are collectively quite unique.
If all you’ve seen are “biscuits”, then you haven’t been paying attention."
16"From Alton Brown’s I’m Just Here for More Food, page 59:
"-Shortening remains plastic at a much wider temperature range than any other solid fat.
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Shortenings like Crisco contain emulsifiers that help batters & doughs come together faster.
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Unlike butter, shortening is 100% fat.
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Although they’re made from vegetable oils that are high in unsaturated fats, shortenings are partially hydrogenated, which makes them mostly saturated"
“Shortening is amazingly useful stuff because stuff because it’s everything butter isn’t. It remains plastic between 98F and 110F, which means that shortening will be workable when butter would be either rock hard or soup.”
He goes on to point out that shortening is actually about 90% fat and 10% air, and that small amount of air is very valuable as a levener.
He also says that there is a good chance that trans fats may be even more harmful than the saturated fats they were designed to replace - a notion I have never disputed."
17"If you need a cite to show you that shortening has a higher smoke point than butter, or that solid fat is preferable to liquid when baking, or the fact that vegetarians prefer shortening to lard, then I would guess that you are being difficult on purpose."
18"Yes I have. In baking, a fat that will remain solid at high temperatures that any other fat is a benefit. Period. A fat that contains certain natural levenings, and is the only fat that does so, is a definite benefit. Period. A fat that has a higher smoke point than any other vegetarian solid fat is a benefit. Period.
No it doesn’t. Personally, I do not prefer shortening. This is the third example thus far that indicates you haven’t read the thread.
Yes I do. 7 times, to be exact. You just keep plugging your finger in your ears, while screaming “LALALALALA I CAN’t HEAR YOU!!” I have also pointed out an example of an industry expert’s opinion on the matter. You ignore that also.
I hYou clearly do not know what you are talking about."
19 &20 (double post) "So claims Crisco, but there are many bakers who disagree. The shortenings I have discussed derive their properties from the process known as partial hydrogenation. Prior to 2005, there were no shortenings in common use that did not contain some sort of partially hydrogenated oil.
They can claim all they want, but it still contains liquid oil, which can screw up the baking process.
The rest of your “cite” was propaganda. "
21. "Yes I have, and yes there are. Shortening & Trans fats are synonymous. In every cite I have given, and in every food science book out there, the benefits listed refer specifically to trans-fats, not generic shortening. Crisco has released a “replacement” to traditional shortening, which is not really considered a replacement. The fact that nobody is buying the product is quite telling. It is not even on the shelf in the two largest grocery stores in the Buckhead area.
Though, if you want to stand by the fact that “trans fats have no benefits”, be my guest. It is probably the single most ignorant statement contained within this thread.
aven’t used the word “taste” in this entire thread. Try reading it.Yep, and the baking replacement contains liquid oil as well."
22 "For the fifth time, try reading the thread. I have provided cites. I have also provided facts that are so mundane as to render cites unnecessary (Smoke point, vegetarian, etc.) You just keep plugging you fingers in your ears when faced with them.
Every point I have made and cite I have provided deal specifically with the benefits of trans-fats. Every replacement product (that you have failed to prove as an adequate replacement for anything other than frying & cake) has been an attempt to duplicate the benefits of trans fats."
23 “Wait, I thought it was already an easy substitute? For a product that has “no benefits”, one would think a respectable substitute would be found before 2008.”
Have I missed any?
You *one and only cite * is a quote from a book, written several years before Crisco and other companies came out with trans-fat-free substitutes. Worthless.
I have given more than half a dozen modern cites, some of them from respected educational institutions. You have one cite, years old, unverifyable, and from a guy who writes cook-books. Pretty good cook books sure, but as far as trans-fats goes, completely obsolete. Oh, and one cite does not equal “cites”. Hint, try using this thing called “the internet”.
Her, try this link:
"Conclusion These data suggest that high dietary intake of copper in conjunction with a diet high in saturated and trans fats may be associated with accelerated cognitive decline. " (perhaps this article explains your posts?)
Or this:
http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S009286740401147X
Or this:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/135/3/562
"In conclusion, this study suggests that higher intake of trans fatty acids could adversely affect endothelial function, which might partially explain why the positive relation between trans fat and cardiovascular risk is greater than one would predict based solely on its adverse effects on lipids. "
Or:
http://www.aacrmeetingabstracts.org/cgi/content/abstract/2006/1/943
"Conclusions: Our prospective data suggests that blood levels of trans fatty acids, in particular trans fats resulting from the hydrogenation of vegetable oils, are associated with an increased prostate cancer risk. This association appears to be specific to organ confined and non-aggressive tumors. "
Or especially* this:*
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/ilsi/nure/2006/00000064/00000006/art00002
"Abstract:
Mensink and Katan showed in 1990 that trans fats reduce high- and increase low-density lipoprotein cholesterol. Unilever aided this study because the company considered knowledge on trans fats incomplete in spite of their long history of safe use. The decision in 1994 to remove trans fats from Unilever’s retail spreads was triggered by media events, but it was built on a solid understanding of the nutritional and technological aspects of trans fats. Over the next 14 years, manufacturers worldwide followed suit. This experience illustrates that food companies need to know about the health effects of their products and how to apply that knowledge. "
