Noble titles have no advantage over others, nor can we rule and be above the law. We are not the law. We are and should be with the law. To deny our claim to a title is un democratic, we have the right to make a claim. IF WE are not given titles and everyone seems to get upset by the idea then why do we have a Monarchy??? Because its better than a republic and safer!
The NZ monarchy doesn’t confer titles of nobility, though.
Besides, if there is a Maori king, what’s to stop him from conferring titles of nobility? Would that not solve your problem?
But why is it a birth right? Simply because you come from a lineage that dates back to historical past? In that light, aren’t we all privelaged?
Everyone currently alive and contributing to this message board come from a long line of survivors. Survivors who were part of one historic moment after another and who produced off spring. And even in a long lineage of a famous family, even they can die out or be replaced by another royal family. I would be surprised if even in pre-European Maori history, you didn’t have one family take over power over another. Common power struggle found in history all over the world. In fact, considering how many people there are in the world today, and how many people there were 200, 300, even 1000 years ago, there is a great likelyhood that just about everyone is related to a past monarch.
And what privelages would you bestow on these royals of New Zealand? Would they be entitled to tax payer money? Or is it just simply a title with no other privelages? If so, why does it even have to be official? You can just make yourself a royal by telling everyone you are born of such and such lineage. Those who are royalists would give you recognition and respect, the rest can just ignore you and go about their daily lives.
I will explain. A noble title is only ever given to the eldest born of the eldest born from which the title has been give to. Brothers and sisters of the noble are without titles so technically are known as commoners and cannot inherit the title unless the line has died out or it has been abdicated . Princess Anne children are commoners because they bear no title. How I would like to see it, is a national forum is created and the tribes and its people register those direct families of Ariki or Rangatira. The title is then conferred by the Queen to that particular person who traditionally would inherit the role and leadership of Rangatira or Ariki, not all Rangatira were inherited, it was often given to by the tribe so new Rangatira could be created for those who deserve the honor.
For example if Man who traditionally would inherit the leadership of Rangatira he would be given the official NEW ZEALAND title of Rangatira Sir James of Ngarongo - the name of the Marae he or she associates to or is leader of.
For an Ariki, He would be known as Arikinui Earl of Ngati Tama or Duke of Ngati Tama, but Duke usually has to be related to the Monarch.So an Earldom would be the highest honor within her realm.
So to explain again
Titles are given to the eldest born of the eldest born of a Rangatira or Ariki
Titles would be registered and forever in the administration of the International Commission of Nobility.
Titles will have no financial or legal privileges
Titles will be internationally recognised by foreign nations
Titles would give Maori an equal footing to that of the Pakeha, recognizing our importance to the formation of this nation
Titles are a honor to have, holding a title would enhance the pride we already have.
Titles with a hereditary or life honor could be suggested by the tribe
Like I said before, the Status of Ariki was given to you by way of birth and birth only. There is nothing within the Pakeha system that officially recognizes those members of Ariki blood. We live in a pakeha world, so why shouldnt our Maori Heritage not be recognized and translated and assimilated into the Pakeha system that every Maori is currently living under right this mintue.
Remember it is the Queen who gives you the right to carry a passport in her name, it is the Queen who states that the holder of the passport is a New Zealander and let them pass without delay. So why is it , that we are ok with this old idea of nobility which reigns over us today, yet we get upset with the idea of us giving titles to the Maori, who rightfully under the treaty and by right of being Native to the country, should have the titles that recognises them officially within the Pakeha system we all live in today.
…see? Was it that hard to explain what system you wanted to implement?
Now, how much support is there for bringing in this system?
How many people are upset at the idea of giving title to Maori? I can’t think of any. In fact, you are the first person I’ve heard raise the subject.
Are you attacking a fictional strawman? Where are these upset people?
There isnt anything stopping the Maori King doing so, but even then The Kingitanga is narrower than maori society its self. Only a few tribes recognize the Kingitanga, because other tribes have its own Ariki. However, every single Maori is reigned upon by the Queen, whether we like it or not, even the Maori king is subject to the Queens laws. When the Maori Queen was alive, She was give n the title of Dame Te Arikinui Te Ata Rangikaahu, she was given a DAME but the title can not be inherited, although its the highest honor within the realm, I am simply stating that Maori Nobility should be given the same rights and official recognition of there traditional leadership. I am talking about is recognised titles for Maori nobility by Queen Elizabeth 2, the recognition which should have been given almost 200 years ago.
The idea of giving Titles to Maori Aristocrats seems to many people to be a ridiculous idea or notion, merely looking at peoples responses, they cant seem to see the other side of it. That we live in a Monarchy, which is headed by nobility which is inherited by birth. So why is it that we recognize a foreign monarch and nobles but not our own within our own New Zealand system.
What are New Zealand’s laws on this? Canada’s not welcoming to the idea of Canadian citizens getting noble titles, for example.
I just want to ask you, do you think what I am asking is a ridiculous I idea?
…are you talking about this thread? Most people don’t have a clue what you are talking about and are relying on you to provide them clear information.
No one in this country has seriously proposed the system you have proposed here. There has been no debate: and there are no “upset” people.
Well laws can always be changed by popular vote, so the law cant stop you creating new Laws. However, with the Canadians not being welcoming with the idea of noble titles, how are they with one ruling over them? The Queen is a Canadian citizen, and she inherits her titles and so will charles and william. To say they are not welcoming of the idea, kind makes me wonder if its all the Americans living in the country saying that. Also, Canada is full of french, they have never liked the idea of nobility hence why the French had two revolutions. So in saying that, it could be infact a cultural thing. In New Zealand, nobility has always existed , before european landed. So it could be a cultral thing that we are ok with the idea, however what we are NOT ok with as New Zealanders, both Maori and Pakeha is the idea that someone is better than you. It wouldn’t be Kiwi if you thought like that, but it is Kiwi to make things fair and right. It is also kiwi to ensure that the wrongs are made right and people and cultures are recognised. We as Maori have kept our side of the bargain, I think its time the Crown kept to there side of the bargain.
…I’m indifferent. You have argued your case poorly. You haven’t given me a single reason to support the idea. You haven’t shown there are other people who support the idea. If I were a republican, I would absolutely not support the idea. I’m Ngāpuhi. What would this mean to me and what would it mean to other people? Unlike others here I’m actually in the position to be able to do something meaningful. But why should I support your idea? Simply yelling out “The Queen” isn’t reason enough to support this idea. We need less class distinction, not more.
how is it not obvious? We are talking about giving titles to the Maori Aristocrats, titles that would be granted by the Queen of New Zealand. An idea that would officially and legally recognize the Maori Rangatira as the Treaty of Waitangi said it would
…people outside of New Zealand are likely to not have heard of the Treaty of Waitangi. You could make stuff up about it and they wouldn’t have a clue whether or not it was true.
For example: can you point out the part of the Treaty that talks about giving titles to Maori Aristocrats?
I havent argued my point poorly, that is a matter of your opinion and your aloud that, you haven’t changed my view on this, so does that make your argument better than mine. I’m not shifted or swayed by your comments, I am however interested in what people think of the idea.
with or without the title you will still be Ngapuhi,it is’nt going to give your land back nor is it gonna make you any poorer or richer and even though you are Ngaphui, you still have to abide by the laws of the land, which is set out by the crown. What it would mean for your people is the Crown/ The Queen officially recognising your Rangatira in her realm, which is basically saying yes, your way of life and your former leadership was and is still important and I want to recognize that importance by granting your Rangatira with a Title within her REALM.
To answer your question, why should I support this idea? well we already do support this idea, its in existence at this very moment, it exist through the Knight hoods and Dames, we have a hereditary Aristocrat reigning supreme over us this very mintue, and in knowing this, does it make you feel inferior? does having a Queen allow you not to have an education or like you said, your in a position to do something meaningful. so by having this Aristocrat/Queen reigning over you, has this stopped you living the life you want?.The answer to the question would most likely be no!
Titles for the Maori wouldn’t enhance a Class distinction, the class distinction already exists, to say that Nobility would be the soul cause of that is silly, USA is a republic and the class distinction there is massive. Giving titles to the maori actually would strengthen the monarchy and its popularity, it would actually revitalize peoples interest in the Maori culture and language. It would preserve our lineage for all the ages to come.
p.s Remember, Aristocracy is not directly linked to wealth, its merely a class or group of people within a society, just like a church, a gang or the red hat society. Now days Class is associated to wealth not your birth. In edwardian times your class was determined by your birth or your fathers occupation, we no longer think in this way. I believe a class distinction gives a standard to which we as a society strive for. Many of the working class have worked there way into the Middle Class and many of the Middle class have worked there way into the Upper Classes, but whatever class you fall into it gives each and every single person a clear distinction on what sort of life one wants to lead and where to strive to, not saying that poor people wouldnt be happier than the middle class, im just saying class distinction is sometimes a good thing, not a bad thing. If we were all to be equal and not have choices then shit, why dont you make a communist. The fact is, we are all born at different levels and there isnt anything wrong with recognizing it.
A Russian Prince was working as a Taxi driver in france, a Russian Countess worked as a maid in paris, but regardless of occupation they still belonged to the Aristocracy class, but them being Aristocrat did not give them any more power or priveldeges as any other citizen of FRrance, so there would be nothing to fear.
Why should you support my idea?
Because Our Culture and the mana that came with the leadership and the heritage of our Rangatira, deserves to be recognised officially by the Crown as a deserving set of people in the realm in which she reigns supreme
That is neither here nor there.
what do you mean?
I think he’s pointing out that you used the wrong version of “their” in your subject line. A cheap dig, to be sure, but mildly amusing.
Notably, membership in groups like that is self-determined. It’s not by birth, and it’s not enforced by the state.
Ideally, the number of aristocrats in the world should be zero. Thus, using the Queen as part of your argument for Maori nobility evokes thoughts of “two wrongs don’t make a right.”
If Maori people want to perpetuate their traditional feudal system, then I guess that’s up to them. Why should anyone outside of New Zealand care? As an American I am unalterably opposed to any sort of monarchy or titles of nobility, and I’d be ashamed to accept one.
If the problem is that white guys get to have a white queen but Maori guys don’t get to have a Maori queen then the solution is to strangle the last king with the entrails of the last priest. And if you want to have a private club of Maori aristocracy then go right ahead, the right of free association is well established in modern democratic society. So if you only let the eldest child of a club member join your club, then fine. But the rest of us are free to shrug and pay no attention to your club, any more than we do the Masons and the Scientologists.