I am to ask the question. Why aren’t Maori Nobility of New Zealand titled? The country is full of Ariki/Royals and Rangatira/Aristocrats! So if New Zealand has a Queen with a Title then why hasn’t she titled her noble subjects? Which were well established before the British took over. Yes, New Zealand has a Maori King, but he is only king of those who recognise the Kingship within there tribes,but his kingship is narrower than Maori Society it self, so therefore could not grant titles, perhaps he could but only within his realm, Because Maori are tribal, it makes this authority more difficult, having a modern monarchy of Queen elizabeth makes us more united in a way, but I believe The Maori Nobility should be granted titles equivalent to there ancestral ranking. Eg a Rangatira/Chief/Cheiftainess/Aristocrat could be given the name of there Marae or region they are from for example a Rangatira from Taranaki could be called Rangatira Sir James of Stratford or if they are Ariki/Paramount Chief/King they called be called Ariki Duke of Ngati Tama. This establishment would raise Maori importance within the European community, giving them a recognised international translation to there rightful names, at the Moment a Rangatira is simply Mr Joe Bloggs. What are your thoughts??
Wait, don’t they already have titles? Maori titles, that is. Why would they want to be earls or barons or whatever?
My own view is those kinds of hierarchy belong in history and people should be aspiring to something more enlightened and egalatarian; something less interested in deference and patronage and more concerend with equality of opportunity and transparency.
You are a very smart man and I like your view if that!! But heritage or what they call Whakapapa is very important to Maori Culture. Our stories and history was carved and inscribed in tattoo and by oral, but much of those stories have gone or perished with the old world, an many Maori now don’t know who there great warriors were or who there Cheif was, and because most maori live in a urban and European way of life, giving titles would preserve that knowledge for centuries to come just like we know of Lord Nelson or Countess of Rothes. New Zealand has a Queen, who inherits her title as queen of New Zealand by birth right, yet her natives subjects who have resided in Nz for centuries have no official recognition. Does that seem fair?
Also to answer the first question, NZ does have titles but they are only a life title given for works rendered to the country, but we also have a Maori King and his wife is titled Lady and his sons Prince… But these titles are only within the realm of the Kingitanga which is narrower than Maori society itself, where Queen Elizabeth rules supreme over all , even the Maori King, he still needs a passport which is granted by the Crown
I think I agree with BrokenBriton. For my part as a white British guy i’m coming from a place where “my” particular culture and history is about as far from forgotten or deliberately smothered as its possible to get, so possibly i’m just a poor judge of this. But I think that efforts to restore and revitalize culture and history, while a good and noble cause, doesn’t overweigh bringing back potentially bad things. I’m not a big fan of what nobility and royalty there is, aside from the occasional pageantry, so I can’t see that any efforts on restoring noble titles as an actual thing is worth what it could take from restoring alternative things.
But it’s easy for me to say that.
What these titles would do is give those noble families International Recognised equivalence to other nobility, at the moment, a daughter of a Ariki/King is merely a Miss joe Bloggs. My grandmother is a Rangatira, she was the daughter of an Ariki, she died aged 93 and her people lost 100% of there land from war, she came from a great line and yet when she died, she was died un recognised, a living testimony to the old world, un-titled after centuries of rule. Remember our way of ruling wasn’t like the English, the people had great respect for them,everything in our culture was done with a noble order, commoners and aristocrats, even in the days we had slaves, it was not uncommon for slaves to marry an aristocrats daughter or son. Nobility within our culture was often earned but Ariki was always birth given.
Yes, I agree with you in some ways, and you totally makes sense, but these wouldn’t be British titles these would be New Zealand titles, which our history and culture is vastly different, although our queen and majority of the citizens came from Britain, we were still a Maori nation before the take over. A title would finally recognise our culture as important and equal to that of our European family. In our treaty, it said we the Rangatira would be recognised and that has not happened, the formation of the Maori land court undermined Rangatira which eventually lead to much of our land being taken, just like the Polish aristocrats, yet they have retained there titles. I just think it would be nice that we are given back to us the rightful status our people deserve
But how would Maori nobility and dignity be validated by some Pakeha title conferred by a Pakeha woman who lives on the other side of the planet, and who in her entire life has probably not spent a cumulative three months in New Zealand? Far from affirming the value of Maori status, this seems to me to deny it; the implication is that you’re not really noble until the Pakeha think you’re noble, and they’ll only think you’re noble if your markers of nobility are conferred by them.
…I’m part-Maori.
Exactly what status are you talking about that you consider “rightful”, and why do we deserve it?
yes I completely understand your view point, and it is very valid. However, what I am talking about is two realms here. Think of it as two world views in one country, which basically means two cultures in one nation. Maori and Pakeha. The pakeha status and recognition of all things pakeha including the queen have been acknowledged and assimilated into Maori culture, e.g the wearing of long dark skirts and scarfs at tangi and even recognising the Queen as a chief etc and many other forms have been adopted into our culture, but what you don’t see is our culture on equal footing to there, in terms of acknowledgement of our once Maori sovereignty. What im talking about is assimilating our version of Rangatira or Ariki into the Pakeha realm. TO be officially recognized within the world view or realm that most of us live in now days. When you say that our markers of nobility isnt conferred unless its by them, could it not be said the same about both you and i having a passport, it is only by the proclamation of the queen that both you and I become New Zealand citizen and can obtain a passport through the name of her Majesty Why should’nt the Rangatira or Ariki be officially titled and recognised within the system that we know. Japanese do it, the Tongan have it, the Samoans have it, the Thai’s have it, so why aren’t maori aristocrats given that status?
The same could be said about the Queen who reigns over you, why does she deserve that title?? why is she given special privileges? why is she kept special but our own Puhi or Rangatira isn kept special? well certainly not in the Pakeha world, unless they are given Pakeha life titles. A Maori woman, who was born to a great warrior or Ariki within the pakeha world is a Miss Joe Blogg, why should she be? why should she be given the rightful status of her forebearers? Why shouldnt she belong to the same class of people as the foreign Queen or should I say the keeper of the New Zealand throne? why shouldnt the pakeha recognise us as well, just like they recognise there Queen, there Lords, there Govenors, there courts, there laws? why cant they assimulate who we are, within there world view.
I’d sooner get rid of the hereditary titles that already exist. If you’re knighted for doing something awesome, sure, I can respect that. But go around telling everyone you’re better than everyone else because your great great grandfather was worth something and I’m going to tell you to go to hell.
If we do not act soon, in 200 years time, our decedents will know very little of us. They will never know who decends from the great chief, or who decends from that great warrior. They will just be ledgens and stories and made up ones. But if we get a forum together and officially mark who these people were then this trace of bloodline will soon be gone. I guess you think the current Maori King is the highest ranking Royal in Tainui?? what you probally dont know is, the Highest ranking royal of Tainui lives in a small village in the Waitomo district, un known to anyone, she lives simple but is the eldest living decendent to the Tainui waka, direct clean line. yet no one knows, not even Princess Te Puia would touch her mother because she new how important she was to the Whakapapa of Tainui. Yet, we are all non the wiser and we will slowly see a history , a true history perish in front of our very eyes.
Then you clearly have no clue on what nobility is. In Maoridom, it was a preservation of our culture and genealogy, kept special and unique because we did not have a written language. as I said before, if we do not mark these families, the lines will be lost in 200 years or so.
Nobility is’noble character: high ideals or excellent moral character
aristocrats: a noble class or people of noble rank in a country
noble rank: aristocratic social position or rank
There is nothing noble in being superior to some other person. The true nobility is in being superior to your previous self.”
Of all varieties of fopperies, the vanity of high birth is the greatest. True nobility is derived from virtue, not from birth. Title, indeed, may be purchased, but virtue is the only coin that makes the bargain valid.
…I’ll ask the question again, but slower this time.
Exactly what status are you talking about that you consider “rightful”, and why do we deserve it?
So you are advocating a class society for the Maori’s in NZ?
What happens to the “peasants”? Do they have to bow to the new noble ranks?
And what happens if the off spring does not behave like a noble?
I’ll give you an example: "The current Thai King is highly respected and loved by the Thai people. So much so, that he is able to settle serious disputes between the main political parties. He has lambasted generals for trying coups and he works hard for his people. But he is getting old and won’t last many more years. The crown prince on the other hand is not respected at all. He is a playboy and he spends money on extravegance. Thai’s are seriously concerned what will happen when the current king dies. It could even lead to civil war.
So why isn’t the crown prince behaving like a noble? Some would say that is a common way for a noble to behave, but it seems rather clear that he should be taking lessons from his father who is indeed noble in his behaviour.
As for the Maoris, the general history won’t go away, would it? If the History itself is written down, it can be taught. And frankly, if you go back a few generations, wouldn’t every one be related?
And what happens to those who deserve to be recognized as outstanding citizens, but are born of common blood? Like Willie Apiata who was awarded a Victoria Cross for bravery in Afghanistan.
A noble demands respect simply because he was born into it, even if he mis-behaves, like the crown prince of Thailand. But a common guy like Willie would have to bow to noble blood, even though he is more noble in action than a would be king?
Royalty is a thing of the past. It no longer serves a purpose and it should be abolished altogether.
What the OP seems to be saying is the Maori will forget who they are unless they’re reminded that some Maori are better than others.
Gee Banquet, your a bit snarky, can you handle a debate? To much for you? I have already given you my answer we deserve by way of birth right? Do i need to say it slower? Just as the queen deserves her only by birth right.
You would be nieve to think a class system doesn’t already exist within New Zealand. What you have said about the Thai crown really isn’t what this is about, regardless if he is off the rails he is Prince by BIRTH right and it is given to him by his father and his fathers sovereign alone, even if Thailand became a republic, he would still be The Prince with or without the countries backing,it is his title by way of birth, if they decide to vote him out then that’s for the country to decide. New Zealand is a democratic Monarchy, where the powers if Nobility are non existent anymore, except for the Queen who reigns supreme. But she has no political say, but can exercise her powers in very extreme cases, a Title for Maori nobility isn’t going to make you any richer or any power, nor is it gonna stop gay marriages or your right to be who you want to be. It is simply recognising our lineage and history! Good on Willie for being a hero, so he should get a title which is conferred by the QUEEN!!! Nobility does not mean you are wealthy, nobility is a birth right, or given by the sovereign.
…you didn’t answer my question at all, and you still haven’t. Lets start with the first bit:
What status are you talking about that you consider rightful?
Define the status you are talking about, and then explain why its “rightful.”
I can sure as heck handle debate. But your position is wishy washy. You want to give Aristocratic titles to Native people of Noble birth? What titles do you want to give to which people?